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Thread: My idea for a better table saw insert

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Lizek View Post
    Attachment 329356You can't beat this zci!
    That looks interesting. Is the a link to the article>
    Steve Kinnaird
    Florida's Space Coast
    Have built things from wood for years, will finally have a shop setup by Sept. 2015 !! OK, maybe by February LOL ……

  2. #17
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    Quick edit of original post - I hope this helps!

    A few years ago I submitted this as a tip to one of the woodworking periodicals. I tried to be very thorough and provided pictures. Yes, I was disappointed that it was not chosen and published, but I was even more disappointed that they didn't at least send me a message back thanking me for my submission. So I thought I'd offer it up to this forum and see what you folks think about it. I will say up front that this project involves some drilling and tapping in your table saw and so it will likely not appeal to everyone.

    I've always had an issue with zero clearance inserts, especially for my Grizzly. Other brand saw ones are easier to find but they are all on the pricey side. And I think there are two reasons for this; the material (either hard phenolic or some kind of plastic) and the fact that they all involve labor to have four set screws installed to allow for surface adjustment. So I reversed that. I decided to drill and tap four holes, one in each of the tabs on my table saw that the insert rests on. I then put a set screw in each location. That way I can make a bunch of my own inserts and not have the laborious job of drilling and tapping and adding set screws to all those inserts.

    I used 1/2 inch MDF for the insert material. Here's the process. You'll want to drill the holes fairly perpendicular in the tabs. The reason for this is that it is better for the insert to sit flush on the tops of the set screws. You could drill by eye, but I used one of those little plastic drill guides with different size bushings.

    Speaking of size, I used 1/4-20 set screws. I just felt this is a good size for the job but you can go bigger or smaller. Cast iron drills very easy and you might want to use a shop vac if you don't want the small metal chips mixed in with your wood dust. The holes need to be chamfered on top and remember to use a little oil when running the tap through.

    For the inserts I used one of the metal inserts that came with the saw as a pattern and I also made some using a purchased insert as a pattern (more on that later). Take your piece of 1/2 inch MDF and rip some strips the same width as your pattern insert. Then cut them to rough length. By hand, hold down the pattern insert on each piece of MDF and draw the rounded ends. I used my miter saw set at 45 degrees to chop the corners off close to each rounded line. One at a time put a piece of double sided tape on the pattern insert and fasten it to a piece of MDF (you will, of course, have to use a new piece of tape for each insert).

    Then it's off to the router table with a pattern bit in place. After making as many inserts as you want set up your router table with a cove bit to make the undercut where the blade comes up. The location of the undercut will vary depending on your brand of TS. If you use a couple of stop blocks this part goes quickly. I was able to make 18 inserts in a little over an hour. You will also want to drill a hole (I used 3/4 inch) in each insert for a finger hole to easily remove the insert.

    Lastly, there needs to be a way to prevent the insert from rising at the back end when the blade comes up. Many manufacturers use a pin inserted at a slight angle in the back edge of the insert. I made some this way and used a section of finishing nail with the head cut off. Be sure to drill a pilot hole though. One of my pattern inserts used a nub at the back which was part of the material itself. But it needs to be pared down part way. I also made some inserts like this.

    MDF is a nice flat material but it is not always the same thickness from sheet to sheet. So I suggest making all your initial inserts from from the same sheet. The other advantage now is that your set screws don't have to be readjusted for each MDF insert. BTW, you should use a bit of thread locker on each set screw so it doesn't move with vibration.

    Remember to break the edges of each insert and chamfer the finger hole. And even like a purchased insert, if you have a riving knife you will have to extend the cut from the blade by hand to accommodate it. You can still use the metal inserts that came with your saw but you may have to readjust their set screws if they contact one of the ones you've just installed.

  3. #18
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    This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  4. #19
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    Bruce,

    Nice drawing! I'm not a machinist so I bought a Betterley Tru Cut insert for my Unisaw.


  5. #20
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    Nice job, John.

    I have had the same problem, of submitting an idea and never receiving a reply. You would think they would at least have a standard reply thanking you for the submission.
    Rick Potter

    DIY journeyman,
    FWW wannabe.
    AKA Village Idiot.

  6. #21
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    Kingston, ON, Canada
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    I had the same insert for my venerable Unisaw, Joe, and really liked it.

    From my perspective, I agree that being able to either slide in or screw on a shop-made narrow insert is preferrable to the other alternatives. To each his own.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Adams View Post
    Bruce,

    Nice drawing! I'm not a machinist so I bought a Betterley Tru Cut insert for my Unisaw.
    Marty Schlosser
    Kingston, ON, Canada
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  7. #22
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    I honestly wonder why the tablesaw manufacturers don't do this themselves because it is a pretty nice solution. My only question is if you use a Loctite or something so the setscrews don't vibrate loose or out of position.

  8. #23
    What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?

    Thanks,

    Greg

  9. #24
    Joe, Thanks for breaking up the text. It did make it easier to read even though I read a lot on the computer. Over on Reddit (and other websites) they usually put a synopsis at the bottom under the heading TL;DR (Stands for "too long didn't read). So that's always an option too. I like the idea overall. I think adjusting might be tedious to get set, but for a woodworker we should be used to tediously adjusting our tools right Thanks for the tips! There is a saying that there is wisdom in a multitude of counselors. I've learned so much over the last year + on this forum. It's a really great place with interaction between people.

  10. #25
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    Feb 2008
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    Some constructive criticism

    John,

    Some comments on your idea and some constructive criticism of your writing.

    -------------------------------------------------

    I use several inserts for various blade thicknesses and dado blades and make new inserts as needed. I personally would not be interested in in going into production to make batch of inserts but to each his own.

    Since each insert may have a different thickness I want each one pre-adjusted with its own set screws. It would not be useful to me to have the adjustment screws in the saw. In fact, that would make adjusting a chore - set the insert, guess at the adjustment needed, remove the insert and turn the screws, repeat. This will probably take several times until perfect. The current method of adjusting the screws from the top until the insert is level would be far quicker.

    Even if a batch of inserts are made from the same stock minor changes might require readjustment. I have a commercial insert that has a small crown for some reason. This does not affect the use since the leading edge can be lowered a few thousandths. To have make fine adjustments for a number of inserts would be a pain.

    Another potential problem - for the typical inserts there are metal set screws bearing against metal tabs on the saw. There would be very little wear with repeated use. Your method puts metal set screws bearing against MDF. This may wear into the MDF with use and require repeated readjustment.

    Your idea is interesting and unique but I suspect the number of readers who would benefit would be small. Perhaps a large production shop could use this.

    -------------------------------------------------

    I have two editorial comments for you, one about your initial post and one about your submission to a periodical.

    FIRST: considering your initial post. I agree with the others - your initial post is very difficult to read. Not because of the length - there are many very long posts. Not because of the content - it appears to be well thought out and well written. Not because of the words - the grammer and sentence structure is fine and I noticed few typos.

    However your post is one of the most diffucult I have ever read because visually, all the sentences are jammed together! Browse this forum and others and look at some long posts. They are almost always broken up into paragraphs. Often the photos are interspersed with the paragraphs. Sometimes the writer includes a few words of caption with each photo which can make it easier to follow the ideas.

    Here is a suggestion of how to go about this. Go ahead and write your text as one big block. Then go back and break it up into paragraphs to make it easy to read. Insert photographs between the paragraphs where appropriate. (NOTE: you can still do this by editing your post!)

    Another way to approach organizing a long post with photos is to insert all photos first and leave some space between each one. Then write the text between each photo.

    Your supposition that forum members here don't read much is flawed. In fact, a recent thread revealed that many here are avid readers! I personally read dozens of books each year and many articles.

    One thing you might consider is how many busy people read forums. First, they look at the subject title and decide if they are interested enough to take a look. If so, they click on the post and often glance at the whole thing, notng the length, visual content, etc. This is a bit like turning a page in a magizine and glancing over the page.

    Then, if still interested, they start reading the first few lines and decide whether to continue. If afraid you lost most readers before this. Reading through a huge block of text is a chore for the human eye and brain. This is MUCH worse if the lines are wide, for example all the way across the screen. Look at any magazine or newspaper. (Have you ever read one? Sorry, I couldn't resist!) All of these are printed in columns! It is too easy for the eye to lose the place when returning to the left side of a long line.


    SECOND: Concerning your submission to a periodical. Editors are very busy people. They get 100s of submissions from hopeful people. But they are also human. If a submission is difficult to read and understand at first glance... guess what, it is ignored, trashed, forgotton. Next please. This is a very much like a personnel manager leafing through a stack of employment resumes. A quick glance at a few key points and it goes into one of several piles. The way a resume is organized says a lot about the way the person thinks.. I'm afraid a resume written as one huge paragraph would go in the pile at the bottom of the next to the desk.

    My wonderful wife was an editor for years and reviewed scientific documents from all over the country. When she received a document like yours that lacked formatting she would not even read it. It would be returned to the author with a page of helpful guidelines.

    -------------------------------------------------

    If you are interested in improving your writing so people will look at your content instead of the image it presents, there is a wealth of information on the internet and in books. Another very helpful thing is to get someone you trust to read the article and make constructive suggestions.

    It is very helpful to first type a long document into a word processing program where it can be reviewed, edited, printed, and easily passed to others for review. Then when honed, it can be copied, prehaps in sections, into a new thread. Note that I did not do any of that for this lengthy response but just typed it into my iPad! It is likely poorly organized and full of typos. However, I'm not trying to make a good impression and get my ideas across to to the public. Just to you.

    JKJ

  11. #26
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    What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?
    Mostly cleaner cuts. Also slivers can't slip down and jam next to the blade.

    JKJ

  12. #27
    "Zero clearance" new inserts should be kept on hand ,especially in commercial shops; the risk of a horrible injury is high using one that has had a set or two of dados used at one time. Requiring the table holes to be rectangular and have a rabbet, like the old Tannawitz and Oliver's, would save fingers. I applaud your effort to encourage folks to make the effort. P.S.: If you are an employee the boss will complain about having them, tell him you don't need to text anyone right now ...so it's ok.

  13. #28
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    Dec 2006
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Page View Post
    This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.
    Bruce, how did you machine the aluminum? With a milling machine?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Visser View Post
    What are the advantages of a zero clearance insert? Does it help dust collection?

    Thanks,

    Greg
    It helps prevent chip-out on the bottom side of the cut.
    Never, under any circumstances, consume a laxative and sleeping pill, on the same night

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Page View Post
    This is the last throat plate I ever made. I made mine out of aluminum plate but it could just as easily be made out of hardwood. The slide in inserts are easily made in a few minutes.
    This is like an insert I made for my old Craftsman table saw except the plate was made out of maple (If I remember correctly), and the inserts out of Poplar. I really like it but that saw is gone now, replaced with a PM66. For the PM66, my son did some renovation on his house and there was a small Corian counter-top that he tossed. I made about a half dozen inserts out of it. For those inserts I didn't even bother with set screws. I just ran them through my drum sander to the proper thickness and lay them in. Never had any issues with them. They are always just the right height since there is no expansion/contraction to worry about.

    Wayne

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