Advise on Saw for cabinet building

[David Ashley]

A commercial point of view would be $40K worth of quality custom made casework = roughly 8K worth of materials. If half of that is sheet goods (3/4 & 1/4 birch plywood), that's a lot of plywood for one man. $32K left for labor, that's 533 man-hours for a $60.00/hr shop. A simple table saw will increase the labor time significantly. When considering doing your own casework there's a lot more to it other than the cheapest table saw capable of doing the job. It took me years of on and off work to get my tiny kitchen done the way I wanted it, but I did get it done. A good table saw was an asset, for sure, but it wasn't anywhere as near as efficient as an Altendorf slider type that the pros use. I also found that storage of work in process and a finishing area were a bigger concern than simple parts detailing. Its worth the hassle if you can't get the quality you want from commercial custom builders. If you're just trying to keep from spending money on big box store cabinets, then you'll find it difficult to beat a man at his own game.

I agree Bob sometimes paying a pro to do the work is better then doing it yourself, but part of the issue I have is location, In the Seattle WA area there are lots of people with lots of money so bill rates and bids have been really high and if you want quality or custom rates go up from there. I understand people need to make a living and respect that but for things I can do its hard to stomach big $$$$ outlay,
I still haven't decided yet on anything but this group is AWESOME Thank you everyone

[Robert Engel]

+5 (or 6?) on the track saw.

I built a big kitchen with several custom features for the same reasons as you.
Overall I had about $5K in materials. I spent $1800 for a nice cabinet saw, $1400 for a big planer and $800 for a jointer.

A friend of mine's daughter (a kitchen designer) who helped me with the layout said the kitchen I built would have been $25-30K.

The satisfaction and "ooh's and aah's" when people find out I built it myself? Priceless.

[Gene Davis]

Cabinet-building is going to require some other tools. You certainly must have budgeted for, or already have, the following:

Planer, jointer, hollow-chisel mortiser (or Festool Domino), router with table and fence, drill press, and sanding tools.

When I was doing whole-house cabinetry work, I outsourced most everything, rather than build in-house. A lot of savings that way. Carcases from someone like CabParts. Doors, drawerfronts, drawerboxes, and accessories from someone like Scherr's. Hardware from one of the known hardware jobbers.

When I got deeper into doing it that way I downloaded and learned to use eCabinets, the app that allows one to design entire installations and then output all the details for cnc-fab of carcase parts, and for buying components. When I was using it, eCabs also permitted output for those building everything using a saw, and not a cnc router.

[Rick Potter]

My local Craig List usually has some very nice Unisaws in the $1,000-$1200 range. By nice, I mean clean never been stored outside, homeowner use (not commercial shop), and including some accessories.

Use it, then when you are done, you can always get your money back if you don't need it anymore. Bet you keep it.

[Greg R Bradley]

......
You can also get away with a contractor saw. They are heavy, you should be able to get 36" rails. I did build quite a few cabinets in my house with the RIDGID TS3650 that I had before the Sawstop. It was only 1.5hp (or something similar); but it had plenty of power for cutting plywood, and didn't bog down when I was cutting 3/4" wide 3/8" deep dados with a 6" stack.

The current incarnation of that saw is $529:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-13...4512/202500206

Dust collection isn't as good, and it takes up more space than a cabinet saw because the motor hangs off the back, but mine served me well for about eight years until I had the financial ability to upgrade and was sure I would be sticking with it.

That saw is $377 at one of the local HDs. I stopped and talked to a person returning one he had just bought. He had pictures where the blade did not stay perpendicular to the table at different heights. Look up the reviews on the web for the current model and you will see nothing but complaints. Just like everything else when something works, they figure out a way to make it worse chasing a lower price or higher profit.

[Chris Hachet]

If you'll be working with sheet goods, a reasonable alternative to a large saw (and the material handling that comes with sheet goods) is a good quality track saw for breaking down sheets with precision. You can then use a smaller table saw to accommodate any narrow rips.

This would be my thought. You will get much more bang for the buck IMHO with a new track saw than a used table saw unless your good at buying used machinery. IMHO someone is usually selling it for a reason....

[Chris Hachet]

That saw is $377 at one of the local HDs. I stopped and talked to a person returning one he had just bought. He had pictures where the blade did not stay perpendicular to the table at different heights. Look up the reviews on the web for the current model and you will see nothing but complaints. Just like everything else when something works, they figure out a way to make it worse chasing a lower price or higher profit.

Which is why I woulod blow the money for a Festool track saw. Very pricey, but it will get the job done and be unlikely to have issues.

[Randy Rose]

If your goal here is simply to save money on cabinets for your new house I would suggest you at least look into outsourcing cabinet parts. Boxes, drawers and doors can be ordered with 7-10 days lead time.

There are dozens of "little things" needed in addition to a table saw. Tooling to do quality work is expensive. Setting up shop is in it's self a huge project. Then there is the space issue - if you plan to take over the house to build cabinets it will slow down other progress on the project.

Do you work a day job? If so, when will you work on cabinets? If you are borrowing money to build, interest will pile up while you build cabinets.

It is not as glamorous, but staying ahead of subs making selections on fixtures and keeping the job site picked up can save a lot of money with no cash out.

A lot of sound and practical advice ^.
Thank you.

[Greg R Bradley]

Which is why I woulod blow the money for a Festool track saw. Very pricey, but it will get the job done and be unlikely to have issues.

Yes, you don't have to convince me as I bought a Festool Track Saw almost 30 years ago when Festool had one dealer in the US. I currently have a Festool TS55 and a Makita SP6000.

I agree with Bradley Gray that you can't buy tools to save money as you might want to buy parts from a production shop that specializes in that. Many "cabinet shops" actually do that.

[Charles P. Wright]

That saw is $377 at one of the local HDs. I stopped and talked to a person returning one he had just bought. He had pictures where the blade did not stay perpendicular to the table at different heights. Look up the reviews on the web for the current model and you will see nothing but complaints. Just like everything else when something works, they figure out a way to make it worse chasing a lower price or higher profit.

It's always a shame when a company manages to value engineer all the value out of a tool. I think the TS3650 had quite a loyal following, yet they went through a lot of churn after discontinuing and guess have ended up in a far worse place.

[Chris Hachet]

A commercial point of view would be $40K worth of quality custom made casework = roughly 8K worth of materials. If half of that is sheet goods (3/4 & 1/4 birch plywood), that's a lot of plywood for one man. $32K left for labor, that's 533 man-hours for a $60.00/hr shop. A simple table saw will increase the labor time significantly. When considering doing your own casework there's a lot more to it other than the cheapest table saw capable of doing the job. It took me years of on and off work to get my tiny kitchen done the way I wanted it, but I did get it done. A good table saw was an asset, for sure, but it wasn't anywhere as near as efficient as an Altendorf slider type that the pros use. I also found that storage of work in process and a finishing area were a bigger concern than simple parts detailing. Its worth the hassle if you can't get the quality you want from commercial custom builders. If you're just trying to keep from spending money on big box store cabinets, then you'll find it difficult to beat a man at his own game.

In one sense yes, but I am building boxes with American plywood and solid maple fronts for my kitchen for less than the cost per unit of unfinished oak and particleboard at Lowes. There is enormous overhead in running a store 140 hours a week with a full staff....

[Chris Hachet]

+5 (or 6?) on the track saw.

I built a big kitchen with several custom features for the same reasons as you.
Overall I had about $5K in materials. I spent $1800 for a nice cabinet saw, $1400 for a big planer and $800 for a jointer.

A friend of mine's daughter (a kitchen designer) who helped me with the layout said the kitchen I built would have been $25-30K.

The satisfaction and "ooh's and aah's" when people find out I built it myself? Priceless.

....and not having a home equity loan and paying cash for everything....beyond priceless....

[Erik Christensen]

I am in the home stretch of what you are about to start - in my case: cabinets for 2 kitchens, 4 bathrooms, 2 offices & walk-in master closet. Main tools depend on what part of the process you are talking about

cases - track saw
drawers & doors - table saw & shaper/router table

either can be contracted out and you just assemble/install - looking back on it I saved maybe 40-50k over all custom but spent 80-90% of that in tooling and several years of part-time labor

so I can't say I really "saved" any $$ but I still have the tools and if I had to do it over I would still build them myself - YMMV

only advice I would give is - if you really 'want' to do this because you'll enjoy it then go for it - if it is to just save $$ then avoid years of hassle/aggravation and just write the checks

[Jim Dwight]

I built one kitchen using a table saw, RAS, router table and hand tools. I made the oak raised panel doors. The doors took at least as much time as the boxes. My late wife was patient and happy with the results.

I built an island for the last house (and same wife) using about the same tool list. The island was nicer than the kitchen, however, because my skills had improved. I dovetailed all the drawers, front and back. The box was built like a series of flat panel doors out of cherry and 1/4 cherry veneer mdf. The latter was 1/4 thick unlike the cherry plywood I could find.

The current LOML doesn't want to wait long enough for me to make all the cabinets so I expect to purchase them. We haven't shopped yet but I want to take a hard look at the Chinese knock-down ones based upon plywood boxes and lower price.

The minimum tool list I would use at this point to try and make a kitchen (or for that matter bathroom) is a decent table saw (I use a Ryobi BT3100 that cost about $300 new. They are no longer in production but you might find one cheap used, very accurate), a planner (mine is a Ryobi AP-10 bought used for $100 with terribly dull knives that work great now that the are sharp), a CMS (mine is a Hitachi dual bevel 12 inch non-slider), a pocket hole jig (I have one no longer offered, if it disappeared I'd probably get a Kreg master setup), dovetail jig (mine is a HF with a Grizzly template guide), a router or two (I have two PC 690s, a Bosch Colt, and an old Ryobi R500 motor in the router table), Router table (mine is home made with a lift), some chisels, and at least a couple hand planes including a shoulder plane, and a track saw (my DeWalt was about $600 with the tracks). I'm sure I left some things out (squares come to mind) but I put a fairly long list in this note to emphasize you need a bunch of "stuff". I also built myself a workbench based upon Ron Paulk's design and one of his crosscut jigs (it will crosscut a little over 3 foot wide pieces).

I believe it is completely possible for somebody who is good with their hands to start out and build acceptable cabinets. But not quickly and not without some tools. My early furniture was pretty basic but served us for many years. I can do nicer work now but it takes even longer. It's fun but not if somebody is on my case for the end result.

(I also use my biscuit jointer for glueups of panels, sanders, drills (usually a cordless), and different kinds of squares)

[Randy Rose]

[QUOTE=Jim Dwight;2518207
But not quickly and not without some tools.
[/QUOTE]


Yet more sage advice ^ >