Sharpening frustration - I need a one-size-fits-all method

[Mike Dowell]

Hey everyone! I need to sharpen my chisels and I'm frustrated. I keep putting it off because I believe I've over-thought sharpening, and now it has become some sort of a big shop obstacle, which it should not be. I've looked around, watched youtube videos, etc, and it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

(4) chisels and a couple of planes. Easy right?

Here are a few things I own for sharpening:

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

now here are my experiences:

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

[Prashun Patel]

Sounds like the easiest path to completion for you would be to get some good stones. My Shaptons (I have a 1000 and an 8000) get and stay flat pretty well. They don't require soaking; just a spritz, so I find them convenient.

I use an MKII for critical blades that I don't want to sharpen often. But for chisels, I have found that free hand sharpening is quick, and pretty easy to master - even if you flat grind your bevels as I do. Free handing chisels will liberate you from worrying too much about bevel angles, and will get you to the stone and back to the bench more frequently and with less dread.

[Sean Hughto]

It all works, and you'll get a variety of replies based on what an individual fortuitously got comfortable with. You need stones that are 3x8 or so to do chisels and hand plane blades with the guide easily. You have the Norton I guess for the shaping of the initial bevel, but you need another norton with something like 8k for finishing and maybe a leather strop charged with LV's green stick to polish and for in-between sharpening touch ups. There is nothing magical about sharpening a straight blade with a guide. Set the guide to obtain a burr and then let the wire edge off with working the back and bevel on a fine stone - polish with a stroke or two on the al-ox (green stuff) and you should have a nice edge.

http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...84&cat=1,43072

[Chris Hachet]

I find Diamond stones to work well. YMMV.

[Nick Stokes]

*I will preface this by saying. I am new to all of this. I do not have a lot of $$ to spend.

You have already spent far more money than I did on sharpening. I have no idea if I am getting my irons/chisels as sharp as some of the dudes on here. But they are sharp enough to slice the hell out of my finger if I slip, and for some stupid reason I occasionally shave the hair off my arm... (What does this prove?)

Coarse, Fine, Extra Fine diamond plate. I have had em 6 months and I haven't touched them other than a spirtz of glasscleaner/water mix, and wipe off after. They sit out on a little shelf next to my bench. Walk over, spritz, slide that sucker around for 10 seconds or so per stone, wipe it off, go on with my life.

I will use a cheap eclipse style honing guide to remedy problems with restoration irons... but anything that is a daily user, I just roll with it.

Do I sometimes miss the "angle" well yea. Are they sometimes not as "sharp" as others due to variations in my free hand method... yea... But i'm going to hit it again at the end of the workday anyway, so, better luck next time. And, with a setup like this, there's no reason you can't head over to the stone halfway through a set of mortises if your not happy with how it's cuttin. Or hell, you get tired a swingin the mallet, take you a sip of coffee, and sharpen that sucker up before you go back to it.


* I just re-read your original Post... 20 MINUTES! Mike, you have to change that mindset imo... I'm talking about 30 seconds per chisel.

[David Eisenhauer]

Sharpening is something that you just need to get used to making a routine part of the work and not a big-deal item that takes tons of thought and setup time. Create some type of "sharpening station" (however small and or temporary) that stays out in view during your hand tool working sessions and use it whenever you feel something is losing an edge sufficiently to affect your work. Going forward with what you have already, Sean says it above. Use a finer stone after using the 1K/4K combo stone to further refine the edge and use the sandpaper on the granite reference block to flatten the stones after/during use. Flattening a water stone should take maybe 30 sec ea, and is not a technical operation that requires lots of attention. Scribble a pencil mark over the surface of the stone, rub the stone on the paper and quit when the pencil marks have disappeared. I believe the main thing is to get started and soon enough sharpening will become a routine operation. I would say stick with what you have for now and make it effective, then, over time, you may wish to try something else. At that time, you should have a better feel for what change you would like to accomplish in your sharpening routine. I think that sharpening is one of those things that has way too many options for the "thinking" woodworker and is in danger of paralysis-by-analysis.

[ken hatch]

Hey everyone! I need to sharpen my chisels and I'm frustrated. I keep putting it off because I believe I've over-thought sharpening, and now it has become some sort of a big shop obstacle, which it should not be. I've looked around, watched youtube videos, etc, and it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

(4) chisels and a couple of planes. Easy right?

Here are a few things I own for sharpening:

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

now here are my experiences:

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

Mike,

First there is no one way that is best for all edge tools but they will all work on most tools. Each is a trade off of speed, ease of maintenance, and cost. For cheap, easy to maintain and will work on most tools it is hard to beat a three stone set of oil stones, Med India, Soft Ark, and Hard Black or Translucent Ark plus a strop. You can get the three stones from TFWW for about $130 USD, add a strop with maybe some green stuff and you are good for almost any sharping need except for maybe HSS.

ken

[lowell holmes]

I find Diamond stones to work well. YMMV.

I'm with Chris. I have oil stones, water stones, and diamond plates. Also, sandpaper on granite plate.

My fine diamond stone stays out on the bench for instant touch up sharpening. Don't forget hone to finish the edge.

[bridger berdel]

Bench grinder, 2 stones and a strop. Water stones need constant maintenance, they are messy and the water promotes rust, but they cut fast and since you have them, stick with it. Ditch the sandpaper, make a strop from a scrap of hardwood or mdf with green compound. 4k to the chrome oxide strop will work fine. The bench grinder is for rehabbing after a chipped edge, resetting bevels after the microbevel gets too long or reshaping abused and vintage finds. You will need a way to true up the grinding wheels.

Also, try going without the angle jig.

[Kees Heiden]

Cheapest and simplest is an India coarse/fine stone and a strop charged with green compound or Autosol. No honing guide. Set the bevel on the coarse stone and rub it back and forth until you can feel a burr on the other side. Set it on the fine stone and feel until you feel the bevel setting on the stone, raise it a little higher and rub on the fine stone. Do the back side on the fine stone and then work it front and back on the strop until the burr is gone. No need to worry about flatness for the first coupe of years.

But you allready have the Norton so I would use that. Maybe add the finest of these 3M papers. Forget about the honing guide, only makes things more complicated. You can use coarse sandpaper to keep the stone flat, but don't exaggerate, without the honing guide it doesn't need to be machine room flat all the time. Just try to keep it in reasonable margins.

[Chris Hachet]

Mike,

First there is no one way that is best for all edge tools but they will all work on most tools. Each is a trade off of speed, ease of maintenance, and cost. For cheap, easy to maintain and will work on most tools it is hard to beat a three stone set of oil stones, Med India, Soft Ark, and Hard Black or Translucent Ark plus a strop. You can get the three stones from TFWW for about $130 USD, add a strop with maybe some green stuff and you are good for almost any sharping need except for maybe HSS.

ken

I used to use Oil Stones for sharpening, they do stay flat much better than water stones.

[Robert Engel]

Here's my opinon FWIW:

Forget the sandpaper and go with stones.

Quality made diamond plates are flat don't let anyone tell you they aren't.
I use DMT I have both the mesh (coarse/xtra coarse & fine/xtra fine) and DiaSharp 8000 plate.
I like the Diasharp better and if I had to do over would not get the mesh plates.
I would recommend a fairly coarse and a fine, something like 300 and 1000. I would take a look at the Trend 2 sided diamond plate.
You need a decent sized stone, at least a 3X8 stone. I splurged on the DuoSharps and got the 4x10 I like the bigger size.

For polishing I use a 4000/8000 Norton water stone. I use the 300 grit diamond plate to keep them flat (do this after every session).
Most times I finish with a leather strop.

For typical on the fly sharpening I hit the 1250 then the 4000 then 8000 and a few strokes on the strop.

In summary:
300/1000 diamond (I like the Trend stones) + 4K/8K water + strop.
This combo will get you 90% of what you need to do.
Shaptons: I've used ceramic stones and personally I don't think they are worth the expense.
Eventually put the jig in a drawer and learn to sharpen freehand.

[Wayne Taylor]

Hey everyone! I need to sharpen my chisels and I'm frustrated. I keep putting it off because I believe I've over-thought sharpening, and now it has become some sort of a big shop obstacle, which it should not be. I've looked around, watched youtube videos, etc, and it seems like everywhere you go, folks say something different. You watch Paul Sellers, and he swears by diamond stones, but then you shop around, and find people in forums talking about how diamond stones aren't flat enough, or they wear too much, or any other number of negative things about that. The same information seems to be out there for water stones. Before this turns into a rant(did it already? sorry.), let me tell you what I have.

(4) chisels and a couple of planes. Easy right?

Here are a few things I own for sharpening:

-Veritas MKII honing guide
-Norton combo stone (1k/4k I think - it's the light brown and tan one)
-Granite reference block
-PSA 3M paper of multiple grades

now here are my experiences:

Scary sharp method - wears out paper *almost* immediately, and I made the mistake of sticking it down to the granite, and boy does it stick!

Water stone - it's a pretty small stone, and it worked well at first but then I read that even after one use, it is not flat any more

So, in closing, I don't need my tools to be sharper than a razor blade, but I do need them sharp. I really wish there was some fast, easy way to sharpen - at least for chisels. It would be nice if I could just take my 4 chisels at the end of the day, and just clean them all up in 20 minutes. Am I dreaming? Before I go and buy any other sharpening tool, I need you all clear-minded folks to smack me and put my in my place.

Thoughts?

I use Paul Sellers' sharpening methods: three progressively finer diamond plates, followed by emery paste on a leather strop. Gives me a mirror finish, and chisels/planer irons sharp enough to shave with, all in about 5 minutes.

If you have trouble holding the correct bevel angle, then use a honing guide. I recently bought the Lie-Nielsen guide and it is a thing of beauty, but in all honesty the free-hand method that Paul Sellers uses is faster and works just as well.

I will freely admit that I am a big Paul Sellers fan. He seems like an honest guy, and his craftsmanship is top shelf. Here he is, sharpening a chisel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ykVzL2VAM

[Jim Koepke]

Mike,

IMO, you may be working too hard thinking about your sharpening needs. One more stone in the 6-8000 range would likely serve you well. Take heed the numbers may mean a different particle size from different manufactures. If my memory is working my Norton 8000 has about a 2 micron particle size. That seems to meet my needs.

If you like the water stones, stick with them. I am a bit of an outlier with water stones. Mine only get flattened when they really need it. Using the full surface as much as possible helps to prolong times between flattening. This is easier when freehand sharpening. Turn the stone end for end so the wear is more evenly distributed. Also remember some water stones will dish more than others.

At one time oilstones didn't seem to work for me. It was amazing how much better they worked once I learned how to sharpen with water stones.

A lot of confusion is generated by different folks treating the different sharpening methods like a religion.

There is the church of Sellers and the rounded bevel. This can be a disaster on water stones as it is very easy to dig in to the surface.

The church of the hollow grind has some interesting features. It requires a bench grinder and removes more metal than I feel is necessary.

Some follow the teachings of the flat bevel. (that is the church of my choice)

Then there are the micro bevels, back bevels and a few I have likely missed.

The important thing is learning to get an edge sharp enough for your work. Remember sharp is a moving target and learning to sharpen doesn't happen in a day. I learned the basic idea of sharpening many years ago. My interest picked up a lot more about 15 years ago and I am still learning and improving. It is a long journey with many tempting plateaus.

My advice is to keep it simple. Once you can get a straight sharp edge consistently then if you like try some of the other variations or add on features.

The trick to freehand sharpening is to keep your hands straight so the bevel's contact with the stone doesn't change. Do not try for speed when first learning this. Once you get the accuracy, speed will come naturally.

There really isn't any 'magic' to the skill of sharpening. Using a guide can make it easier and faster. To me, it is like training wheels. Once you get the movement memory in your hands, arms and body, the training wheels can come off and you will find it is faster since there isn't any time spent setting up and cleaning the guide.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Must... resist... temptation (take a long look at the subject line).

With that out of the way, I have a few thoughts:

"Scary sharp" [*] isn't a particularly economical way to sharpen, but the sandpaper shouldn't wear out as quickly as you describe. What paper are you using, and what sorts of steels are you sharpening? Is it possible you're using too much pressure?

Is your "3M PSA paper" actually paper or is it lapping film? Granite works well for sandpapers, but IMO it's a little too rough to use as a substrate for films. Float glass is better for those. FWIW I sometimes use 3M 661X diamond film on really difficult steels, and I stick it to the glass with a very thin film of mineral oil (very similar to fluid-mounting photographic film for scanning).

The "Stikit" line of 3M sandpapers have fairly weak PSA adhesives that might be easier to deal with.

You might want to get a glass plate, some SiC grit, and laminating sheets to flatten your Norton stone.

Finally, I think the main thing you need to do is practice. Cleaning up 4 chisels in 20 min should be easily achieved with the equipment you have, provided you don't have to do major material removal due to folding/chipping.
[*] IMO the only thing "scary" about it is that Brent actually convinced people it was something new. P.T. Barnum had it about right...