As there is no strength in the long grain of the tenon to the end grain of the mortise (e.g. in rail to stile joinery) the strength of the joint is not compromised by the loose tenon having some lateral movement.
Contributor
As there is no strength in the long grain of the tenon to the end grain of the mortise (e.g. in rail to stile joinery) the strength of the joint is not compromised by the loose tenon having some lateral movement.
In Memoriam
What he said.Originally Posted by Von Bickley
Cody
Logmaster LM-1 sawmill, 30 hp Kioti tractor w/ FEL, Stihl 290 chainsaw, 300 bf cap. Solar Kiln
Contributor
So if a dowel doesn't bottom out on both ends, is that a sloppy fit?
Member
If you have to be told why you need to buy a domino, you don't need to buy a domino. The same goes for most any tool in a woodworking shop.
If you are interested at all in trying one out, Festool tools have a no hassle 30 day return policy so you can use one and see if you like it.
Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.
Member
Price...speed....quality....pick the two that are most important to you and that will define the method you use to join wood at right angles....also defines your MO for many other things in life. Pick two, because its pretty rare you can get all three in one package. There are lots of ways to joint wood at right angles, I use pretty much all of them in my job as a cabinet maker. Different situations call for different plans of attack. I need to get jobs out the door at the highest quality possible, I need as few call backs for failures as possible, I need to work as quickly as possible while accomplishing number's one and two. There is no faster way to make accurate strong furniture type joints with shop hand or power tools than a domino. Loose tenons have nearly all the strength of an integral tenon, they are significantly faster to make consistently than traditional tenon methods, and they have something like 20 times the long grain glue surface of a dowel. For narrow rails in more delicate objects I prefer a dovetail on top rails for best work, a domino is a very close second....dowels are virtually useless. You can't fit two in narrow rails, they stand a good chance of rotation, either at glue up or in the future. People say "they are strong because I use two or three dowels.." A domino is like having 20 dowels in 2" rail....can you put twenty dowels in a 2" rail? You can design good furniture that can be well made with dowels, but not every design works well with dowels, dominos are very versatile that way, there is a size for almost every application. I use to run an automated passage door dowel machine, its a pretty hard joint to break, quick and accurate for wider work...doesn't scale down so well.
I like Mike's suggestion. Test drive one, Festool encourages it. But don't do that if you really can't afford one at present, its a hard tool to send back. I suggest you pick a project, set up your design, build through an actual project with a domino, if you don't like it, or don't find its worth the asking, hold them to their offer and send it back.
I should note...I have used a domino professionally for 10 years, have requested one at every job I've gone to, but don't own one for my home shop. Sure wish I did, but I bought a slot mortiser to handle bigger mortises for entry ways. Now I'm using the big domino at work, and would definitely have bought that instead.
Last edited by Peter Quinn; 01-24-2016 at 5:13 PM.
"A good miter set up is like yoga pants: it makes everyone's butts look good." Prashun Patel
Member
I have the domino 500 and I use it professionally since it's introduction. Just about every job since new. One of the primary goals of the machine is to justify the purchase...especially higher priced machines. Once I have the machine (whatever it may be....the Domino or some other cool tool), I try to incorporate it into regular routine as much as possible. You need to think if this machine is a one time deal or if you can use it more often than not. The Domino is one of those machines that have it's place in the shop. You will find a use for it if you do regular shop work. Finally, this is a machine that has a good resale value.......there isn't too many used models on the market. If there is one, it'll be an easy sell for a good price for the seller!
Contributor
They are not talking about both ends. They are talking about making the hole wider then the domino. For clarification they are putting a 5mm x 15mm domino into a 5mm x18mm hole. I don't know the exact dimensions but it should get the picture across. Then the justification that the holes are on long grain only where it is not needed for strength, which was never mentioned before. Floating or true tendons are never always on long grain to long grain. A lot of the time it is end grain into song grain like a leg to an apron. I just built a bed and where the headboard met the post I put a row of 10 dowels. They lined up perfectly. I could have put 40 and the would have still have lined perfectly. No enlarging the holes. I didn't have to pay $900 to do it.
Contributor
Yes, but dowels are dowels and Dominoes are, well, stronger due to the gluing surfaces involved, if nothing else. That said, I'll cut my mortises with a mortise machine or chisel.
Dan
Member
Dominos are just larger dowels. They may have larger gluing surface, but if you use more dowels, they are no better.
Moderator
Jon, I'm working on the exact same decision myself right now and it's most likely that the Domino XL will be the first tool purchase I've made in years. I've studied this tool quite a bit lately, watching the videos and communicating with some owners. And at this point, I think it might be the perfect fit for a number of projects I have planned for some time, but never got around to for a variety of reasons.
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Brian, I think it's a bit of a simplification comparing dowels to Dominos. A better comparison is loose tenons because of the glue surface and I do not believe that just adding more dowels will add strength in the same way that a longer and wider Domino/tenon can after glue-up.
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The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...
Member
I have been considering one too. I have a mortiser, so I am having a hard time convincing myself to sort of duplicate tools. I know, I know, very different, but the outcome is sort of the same. There are things the Domino would do that I couldn't do on the mortiser. Hmmmmmm..... One thing I have noticed is that I have never heard any negatives other than price. Even saw Paul Schurch use one on RoughCut I believe....his work is realy something. Anyway, no doubt it would be nice to have, but that is a lot of dough. Went through the same with a Tormek and I have really enjoyed having it for many years now. Same with the TS, the router,....hey, there is a theme here! Cars...houses....
Tony
Contributor
Years ago I bought a Domino 500 in the good old days when for a short time we were able to combine Bing cash-back and e-bay discounts. Anyway, I didn't use the Domino 500 much so I sold it about 1-1/2 years later. Recently, I was honored to build a crib for our first grandchild. Researching designs all of those slats, connecting bent lamination's, and various other joints steered me to look at the Domino XL. I purchased the Seneca adapter for smaller bits and their imperial thickness kit and couldn't be happier. I probably cut almost 200 mortises for this project alone. I even made a fixture to center the mortises in the slats. More importantly the project taught me the tool is very simple to use and adapt - just use it! The 700XL is larger than the 500 but I found it very easy to use.
Mike
Member
If this were true mortise and tenon joints would have probably never evolved. It has been easier to drill holes for at least a couple thousand years but m & t came about because it offer significantly more strength than dowels. A dowel only sees long grain for glue surface when inserted into end grain, which is why most dowel failures leave the dowel in the end grain with the failure on the other side of the joint where the dowel sees end grain and the glue fails. A domino, or a tenon, just sees so much more surface for glue to overcome the shortcomings of end grain. Also, if the domino or tenon can be oriented for it, one can accomplish long grain to long grain on one side and long grain/cross grain on the other.
Member
aprons and legs always have face grain to face grain surface (that's actually the biggest surface area).
And it was already mentioned you don't "have to" make the holes larger than needed. You can get absolutely tight fit if you want.
You don't need to buy domino, many people don't but don't trash the product for incorrect reasons.
Member
It's not a sloppy joint. If you are making a 6 mm domino, the 6mm width stays 6 mm.. The "long" part of the cut is cut a little bit wider so you have some adjustment room, but since the 6mm cut stays the same, you still get a strong joint.
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