Tips on tails...

[Patrick Walsh]

I have set out to make about 15 drawers hand cutting the dovetails.

I have watched a number of YouTube videos on proper layout techniques and for the most part have that part down.

So the question is this, I imagine other than just plane old practice there has got to be a few tricks of the trade or secretes. For instance cutting to the waste side of your lines is pretty obvious.

My boxes are comprised of sapele sides backs and bottoms using through dovetails. For the first time i am finding this wood fairly dry and splintery. My only previous experiance with sapele is with power tools.

The faces are birdseye maple with half blind dovetails. I am inclinded to think it safer to cut not enough material off remembering that wood will compress. On the other hand with wood like this dry splintery sapele i am nervouse to just pound the tails home and inclind to think i have to nail my layout and cut both my tails and sockets perfectly. I will never be happy if my work requires fill and or tinted this or that to mask my mistakes.

One other problem i am having. I am using a 14% gauge to mark my tails. I am also trying to leave only 1/8" between the tops of the pins and tips of tails.The problem is like this. I cut my tails staying to waste sides of my tails. When i then go to clean my tails up or bring them to my layout lines i find my chisel cant fit to pair the sides down. I cant get in from the top and i cant get in from the faces. Well at least not without widening my 1/8 reveals. My only thought is in order to leave such a small reveal beteeen my tails i will need to just saw exactly to my layout lines. The other problem with this is i invitably end up tearing out a small chunk here and there on the tips of my tails being i cant pair from the top.

Anyway i could go on and on. Hopefully the above will get a conversation started? So far it seems whatever i do i get gaps or missed cuts or whatseems to be poor layout?

Oh i am using a single sided marking knife to do my layout. Again one of the problems i have is getting the knife to register tightly to the sides of my tail board when transfering the info to what will become my pin board. To date i put what will become my pin board in my vise and then lay my tailboard atop it and do my best to hold it steady while i transfer the info.

[Jim Koepke]

One of the things that has worked for me is to design my dovetails around the tools that will be used to make them. It is impossible to get a 1/4" chisel to pare an 1/8" gap.

I have also found it to be a help to use fine toothed saws with a light saw plate.

If tails are done first, get the tails to perfection before marking the pins. I have made my own marking knives out of old plane blades and an old saw blade. It works best if you have a bevel away from the piece being use to guide the knife.

The knife made from a piece of saw blade works best for marking in tight places like when cutting dovetails.

Saw Blade Marking Knife.jpg

It doesn't have to be elegant, it just needs to work.

Wood can compress, it can also split. Some folks like the idea of dovetails fitting right off the saw without any test fitting or paring. Bully for them. I have done it that way, but a little paring to fit works fine for me.

You might look at Derek Cohen's site > inthewoodshop.com < he has some good advice on cutting dovetails. I believe Mike Henderson also has a tutorial on cutting dovetails.

Prashun Patel started a post on a walnut cabinet build. He shows a technique of using blue tape, Derek first showed us this, for marking dovetails.

You would be amazed at how many different web sites I have looked at for the "magic silver bullet" of perfect dovetails. There is either some little piece of the puzzle exposed or reaffirmation of what you have already learned to be found at each one.

The best advice is to saw to the line, not through the line. Make sure you are cutting on the waste side of the line. When you mark from the first piece to the second, the line is in the area that is not waste. If a pencil is used, there is likely a little space between the pencil line and where the waste begins.

In all of the things done in woodworking dovetails seem to be the most important place to make sure things that need to be square are square.

In my building potting benches thread:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...94#post2375994

I show my method of making everything square when marking from the tail to the pin board. It is a single tail joint, but getting the pieces square to each other is of paramount importance.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

Rabbet the inside of your tail boards. Like 1/16 inch or less. This makes resting it atop the pin board for marking much steadier.

blue tape is my silver bullet for the week. Ultimately its practice that makes it easier.

for tiny pins you may need to make or buy a smaller chisel. Make sure you get one with beveled sides.

[Don Jarvie]

Jim is right in trying to pare a 1/8 tail with a 1/4 inch chisel. Not going to work well.

Are you using a marking gauge? If not invest in one. The marking gauge will give you a consistent line to saw and pare to. I make the tails and pins the same width as close as I can. I use a bevel gauge to mark out the angles approx 13 degrees. Use a good saw, I have a LN carcuss saw. Saw to the inside of the line so the line just slightly shows. I pare our the waste and check the bottom with a square so it's flat across. I also take the combo sq apart and hold the ruler flat against the tail or pin and put the other part on top of the tail to make sure the pin is cut straight down. You can see if the sides aren't square when you put them together.

Since you you are in Boston look at the North Bennett st school and see if you can take fundamentals of fine WWing. They offer the class nights, weekends or 1 week courses. You learn sharpening, chisel work, using planes, HC dovetail and M&T. I could do none of these and can do all fairly well now. If you want more info PM me. I highly recommend this course.

[Patrick Walsh]

I have all the tools.

Two marking gauges, a proper marking knife a full set of ten LN bevel edge chisels, and a Japanese pull saw. I'm eager awaiting the delivery of a BadAxe dovetail saw.

I just did the other side of that drawer. I made some improvement but still there are two missed cuts. I dont know how i did this. I must not be paying attention closely enough. Out of ten cuts " five tails & five pins" i nailed eight cuts and missed two.

Hopefully tomorrow i can continue my progress and by the time I'm done with the half blinds on the front be mistake free. Being i have fifteen drawers to make i should be a pro by the time im done. I think part of the problem is this sapele. It is really really really brittle and dry.

My first attempt cutting dovetails was just a couple days ago using some small scraps of teak and hard currly maple. I was not having the same problems with splintering edges. I was missing a cut here and there but nothing major.

I am actually thinking of taking a hand tools workshop at the school up in Beverly. It starts next month and meet once a week for three months.

Thank you all.

FYI i misssed the other recent thread where asking about dovetail info till after i had posted.

Jim is right in trying to pare a 1/8 tail with a 1/4 inch chisel. Not going to work well.

Are you using a marking gauge? If not invest in one. The marking gauge will give you a consistent line to saw and pare to. I make the tails and pins the same width as close as I can. I use a bevel gauge to mark out the angles approx 13 degrees. Use a good saw, I have a LN carcuss saw. Saw to the inside of the line so the line just slightly shows. I pare our the waste and check the bottom with a square so it's flat across. I also take the combo sq apart and hold the ruler flat against the tail or pin and put the other part on top of the tail to make sure the pin is cut straight down. You can see if the sides aren't square when you put them together.

Since you you are in Boston look at the North Bennett st school and see if you can take fundamentals of fine WWing. They offer the class nights, weekends or 1 week courses. You learn sharpening, chisel work, using planes, HC dovetail and M&T. I could do none of these and can do all fairly well now. If you want more info PM me. I highly recommend this course.

[Patrick Walsh]

More progress.

Still not perfect but getting better. I cut these ones to my layout lines. What you see is just how they came off the saw.

I botched the layout someone with one tail being about 1/4" smaller.

Plenty of room for improvement but moving in the right direction.

I think part of my problem is my Japanese pull saws tooth. It seems to me it could be much more a fine cut resulting in a cleaner cut and even closer to the lines. Getting the saw started is not so much hard as rough. New saw is in the mail i hope?

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[Don Jarvie]

New saw should make a huge difference. Which ever you cut last, pins or tails you should be cutting on the waste side leaving the line slightly. If you cut on the line they'll be too loose. You can cut the line for whichever you do first since the fit will be due to the 2nd board.

[Prashun Patel]

Patrick. Your tails look fantastic. Each man's aspiration is his own, but I'd be plenty proud of those off the saw.

[Patrick Walsh]

I habe been cutting just to the line.

Another thinng i am thinking with regard to this dry slintery sapele. I am using a traditional marking knife. If i cut right to the line but leave a bit of line tow things happen. One im am left with many of my layout lines and its ugly. I figure when implane my sides to fit my drawer boxes i will take care most if not all of the layout lines. The second thing hese layout lines cut with a marking knife "but left & cut just to" is weaken the fibers of my already splintery wood.

I know the new saw is really going to help. I can tell what i want for working with this wood is a saw with a tiny kerf and very very fine tooth. My japanese pull saw although decent is neither of the above.

New saw should make a huge difference. Which ever you cut last, pins or tails you should be cutting on the waste side leaving the line slightly. If you cut on the line they'll be too loose. You can cut the line for whichever you do first since the fit will be due to the 2nd board.

[Patrick Walsh]

Thanks for saying so.

They still dont meet my expectations but im sure if i just keep at it in a very short time i will be happy with my abilities.

I have been home sick all week with a brutal cold. The workshop has been calling my name all week. I just gave in yesterday. Now these drawers have my attention like crack! I should be resting but the lure of the shop is winning at the moment.

Patrick. Your tails look fantastic. Each man's aspiration is his own, but I'd be plenty proud of those off the saw.

[Brian Holcombe]

Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.

[Patrick Chase]

Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.

In my experience this is a very individual thing - different people have ever-so-slightly-different definitions of "cutting along the waste side of the knife line", and therefore need to bias the baseline to varying degrees to get a good fit. I'm similar to Brian though - I cut right up to the line and therefore overlap a teeny bit when transferring from tails->pins.

[steven c newman]

Ok, for some reason, when I cut a few dovetails, I try to cut the pins first.....and I, out of habit, split the lines, usually on the waste half of the lines.. I use the pins to lay out the tails. I then cut on the waste side, and leave the entire pencil line. I can always pare away what I don't need...harder than#$#@ to replace what was sawn off. I do indeed have an 1/8" chisel, but prefer to use the 3/16" one instead, so that is the narrowest pin part I will use. I am getting better, though..
end view.jpg
And, Pine is a bit harder to do Dovetails in, anyway...

[Patrick Walsh]

Steady progress.

After i got the backs of this one box to a acceptable place i decided to tackly the half blinds for the fronts. I have to boxes cut at this point. Well one box backs only and one box backs and front. I am half considering redoing my first box.

When i cut the tails for my half blinds i decided to gange the two pieces and cut them together. This really worked out nice, i think this is how i will work in the future.

I still have a slight gap on one tail on the face of th tale and drawer. I may just need to clean the joint up a bit better as when i clamp the box this gap goes away. I must say i really enjoy cutting half blinds much better. Last week when i cut my first dovetails i was cutting half blinds and getting much better results than i was just yesterday with through dovetails. Seems weird to me. Ow well is what it is.

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[Patrick Walsh]

Im gonna give your suggestion bellow a try tomorrow.

What do you mean by notch the pin board?

Thank you all for the tips.

Patrick, when you lay the tail board onto the pin board to mark, I'm sure that you line up the baseline with the inside face of the pin board. If you overlap that slightly it will make the pins slightly larger (just a tiny bit) and make for a compression fit. Don't over do-it with this, just a slight bit (i use the thickness of the line usually).

I also notch the start on the pin board so that I'm cutting next to the line and not cutting the line.