Anyone using a Stanley 5 1/4??

[Glen Canaday]

Answer: a very long time. A #3 iron is the same iron, and they are still made by quite a few companies.

The thicker iron is not required. The current trend toward thicker and thicker irons is a modern thing. Were the thinner irons they originally shipped with not adequate, for over 100 years? The reason I do not stand behind altering the mouth on a dwindling supply is just that: they are not making any more of them. On a modern plane, sure, alter as you see fit, you can get another easily if a bad decision is made and something is learned. But consider whether the alteration is done because someone is glued to fashion rather than expediency or practicality.

Absolutely take a file to it if the mouth is badly shaped and marking the work, but if the mouth has to be wider to accept a new, thicker iron (which may also not fit the depth adjustment yoke!), consider also whether the iron's thickness is not the culprit instead. IIRC, you can get Stanley thickness Hock irons.

I won't preach about it (do whatever you like), but I see a lot of cheerleading for thick irons that the planes weren't designed to accept. I merely wish to offer a counterpoint so that people will think about their reasoning before they go hog wild on antique iron.

[Jim Koepke]

Some of my Stanley/Bailey planes, even with the original blades, have tight mouths. Some have been altered, most have not.

Yesterday some time was taken to rehabilitate an old #3. There was a chip at the back of the mouth that was filed away.

Even with a mouth that is a bit wide it can still take fine shavings. It can also take heavy shavings. One of the fatter cuts, I call them zipper cuts because that is what they sound like when being made, measured at 0.021". Save that sucker for when a shim is needed.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

Re: Frog and sole mated inline? That is where I always set up the frog. Maybe a fingertip to feel that they are inline. IF at some time, the frog MIGHT need to move forward.....that is when I start to get a bit of chattering. When the iron can rest FLAT on the frog and the small ramp at the back of the mouth opening, never had any chattering. Reason: Chipbreaker might help an iron stay stiff, IF the other side of the iron is also supported. Loose that support, and the iron may start to deflect backwards, away from the chipbreaker. With the support, I can just cut right through a knot, without? It will skitter across, and not cut.

I realize that making arguments based on physics (as opposed to superstition and lore) is frowned upon, but: Your explanation make no sense.

The old style "humped" cap irons have ~2 mm of preload (i.e. the blade would have to deflect by 2 mm to disengage from the cap iron), and even the newer milled ones have close to a millimeter of preload. In order for your hypothesis to be possible the blade would therefore have to deflect away from the cap iron by 1-2 mm. Keep in mind that the blade and cap iron share a common pivot-point at the bottom edge of the lever cap, so all of the separation would have to take place below that.

Doing some quick back-of-the-envelope math for the blade stiffness, the force required to do that would be measured in hundreds of pounds if not tons. Many other components (the cutting edge itself, lever cap screw, depth-adjustment fork, etc) would fail catastrophically long before that happened.

[Jim Koepke]

Doing some quick back-of-the-envelope math for the blade stiffness, the force required to do that would be measured in hundreds of pounds if not tons.

No room for decimal points on the back of that envelope?

Next we will have a thread on what is and isn't chatter when planing. My understanding has been it to be any vibration caused by the interaction of the blade and wood being worked. Sometimes it is high pitched, sometimes it sounds like a vehicle going over the indentions in the sides of roads as a warning to wandering drivers.

It never occurred to me the blade and the chip breaker had to separate before it could be called chatter. Besides, my bet is most blades do not need to move a full 2mm before gaps occur between the blade and an old Stanley/Bailey style chip breaker.

jtk

[steven c newman]

Well, sorry, Professor..

Just going by what I have actually seen over the years. Sometimes, one can even hear the "PING' as an iron flexes....

closed mouth openings quickly become fouled mouth openings, as there isn't enough room for the shavings to clear their way up and out of the plane.

besides, it is more the operation of the chipbreaker, rather than how closed the mouth is. Wasn't there a study a few years ago from Japan about that?

[Patrick Chase]

Well, sorry, Professor..

Just going by what I have actually seen over the years. Sometimes, one can even hear the "PING' as an iron flexes....

Really, so you have high-speed video showing that that's what actually happened and caused the noise you heard?

The most loosely attached component in the system is the lever cap (particularly if you've set it loose enough to be able to adjust depth while planing), so any sound you heard is vastly more likely to have originated at the interface between lever-cap and cap-iron.

In other words, the evidence you cite doesn't specifically support your claim. It has other much more probable explanations.

closed mouth openings quickly become fouled mouth openings, as there isn't enough room for the shavings to clear their way up and out of the plane.

besides, it is more the operation of the chipbreaker, rather than how closed the mouth is. Wasn't there a study a few years ago from Japan about that?

Indeed, but as many have pointed out the use of a close-set cap iron has its own drawbacks (it impacts surface quality a bit for starters).

My BD smoothers are set up so that I have both options (close down the mouth or tighten the cap iron set, but seldom both). I would never modify a plane such that I lost the ability to close down the mouth.

[Patrick Chase]

No room for decimal points on the back of that envelope?

It seems rather unlikely that could happen at realistic planing forces.

Next we will have a thread on what is and isn't chatter when planing. My understanding has been it to be any vibration caused by the interaction of the blade and wood being worked. Sometimes it is high pitched, sometimes it sounds like a vehicle going over the indentions in the sides of roads as a warning to wandering drivers

I don't think that the "roadside" kind is an interaction between the blade and wood - it's far too low in frequency for a system that stiff. In my experience the "washboard" kind is more of a pilot-induced oscillation (borrowing a term from the aerospace world)...

It never occurred to me the blade and the chip breaker had to separate before it could be called chatter. Besides, my bet is most blades do not need to move a full 2mm before gaps occur between the blade and an old Stanley/Bailey style chip breaker.
jtk

To be clear: I was replying to Steven's specific claim that chatter happens when the blade "loses the support" of the cap iron.

I've experienced chatter, and I'm 99.999% sure that the cap iron was engaged when it happened. I'm also 99.999% sure that it happened because I had done something else wrong, for example using a blade that wasn't sufficiently sharp for the cut I was taking, taking too rank of a cut, failing to skew when there were already striations in the wood, etc. That's what I meant when I said in my previous post that in my experience chatter had always happened because of "other idiocy on my part". IMO chatter is a real problem, but it has root causes and fixes separate from what's being discussed here.

[steven c newman]

Sounds like a Crusade going here? Arguements do nothing to help the OP. Make a Youtube Show about all of this. Oh, wait, the japanese already did one.

Why would I ever NEED a "High Speed Video to confirm what I both feel and see when I actually use these planes. haven't the time, or the money, nor the reason.

Maybe a little hands on work, instead?

I'm going merely on what I have actually seen while using these planes, trying various settings to find what does indeed work, and what will not. Maybe that is why I can use that 5-1/4 I have to smooth out a glued up panel? chatter-free, and see through shavings are a nice bennefit of all the research I actually put in.

Not sure HOW you have YOUR lever cap set, not really interested anyway. I set mine so things stay put when I have the plane set the way I need it to be. Lever cap is on the other side of the cap iron from the iron, correct? So, all it does is contact the chipbreaker. If the iron does deflect BACKWARDS from these two, not much they can do about it.

This entire "Class" really has nothing to do with what the OP was asking. Maybe YOU should start a seperate thread and teach?

[Jim Koepke]

IMO chatter is a real problem, but it has root causes and fixes separate from what's being discussed here.

How ever did you apply the "hundreds of pounds if not tons" you said would be required?

Doing some quick back-of-the-envelope math for the blade stiffness, the force required to do that would be measured in hundreds of pounds if not tons.

Then:

To be clear: I was replying to Steven's specific claim that chatter happens when the blade "loses the support" of the cap iron.

My understanding of Steven's statement was chatter is more likely when the blade looses support from the plane's base below the frog. The cap iron is pressing on the blade as the wood being planed is also deforming it. When the wood submits there is a sudden move forward due to the flex of the metal. Then it all starts again. This can be anywhere from the sub-audible range up to frequencies that cause the neighborhood dogs to bark.

jtk

[Patrick Chase]

How ever did you apply the "hundreds of pounds if not tons" you said would be required?

I didn't, and that's why I'm pretty sure that the cap iron never separated from the blade. On the rare occasion that chatter happens it involves vibration of the entire blade+cap-iron package (or the entire plane in the washboard/roadside case), not one separating from the other.

[Glen Canaday]

Yesterday some time was taken to rehabilitate an old #3. There was a chip at the back of the mouth that was filed away.

Even with a mouth that is a bit wide it can still take fine shaving.
jtk

Yup, and yup.

I have a Miller Falls 24 jointer (#8 size) with a chip at the back of the mouth. It does mark the work. I'll probably build up jb weld and then file that back down to the original size and shape.

It's not original, it's a usability rehab!

To tie it back to the OP, the 5 1/4 works great as a small jack without modification. It's light and maneuverable.

[paul cottingham]

Before I got a scrub I used a MF #11 (same as #5 1/4) with a big camber on the iron.

They definitely are easier to push than a 5.

This. I have a MF11 i use as a scrub. Works great.would love to have a dedicated scrub, but can't justify the cost.