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Thread: Are Japanese Instruments Really Superior?

  1. #16
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    alan,I am having trouble figuring out what you are saying!!

  2. #17
    george wilson,

    Yes, sorry, a bit of a ramble. Really, just a general account of watching the changes over fifty years to musical instrument making as a craft - mechanization, computerization, globalization and the enforced idea that the only measure of success or real value is how much money something is worth- Trumpification. Then, adding insult to the original insult, that the people who have spent decades learning how to make something - like the boot-making George, that the knowledge derived from experience will not be passed along. This is then a dissolution of subtlety- the "art" is lost and objects become sort of equalized imitations because machines can do it well enough for those who have never seen the alternative and the result is cheap enough. When a lot of people are never exposed to art and craft they won't be inspired to learn it, they're just as happy in their mind in mindless tasks- an office cubicle and fast food society.

    Alan Caro

  3. #18
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    I'm trying to pass on some knowledge here,Al.

    You may not have found the right customers. Fortunately,I have found a few. Much of what I have posted here went to a customer. Wealthy,unfortunately,I suppose to some. But they at least have a real appreciation for good work. I am glad they did,because I can't afford to work for 50 cents an hour.

    Like it or not,things have to be priced. That's just how the World is. And,quality costs money. I escaped the cubicle,but too often not the fast food!

    Trump has his ideas what quality is. I have mine. We live in 2 different spheres. Room for both.
    Last edited by george wilson; 02-04-2016 at 9:33 PM.

  4. #19
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    Alan,it is not a great feat to make a Gretsch repro better than the originals that fetch ridiculous amounts of money. Gretsch bodies were apparently made in several different locations. Their quality varied wildly. More than any other commercial guitar I can think of. I have a 1964 Anniversary model which has a top that was glued on 1/2" off center! This is obvious when you look at the different distances to the edges that the lower part of the F holes make.

    If you look into the body,crammed up under the neck block is a scrap of Gretsch body plywood about 4" square. No effort at all was made to plane this hunk of 1/8" plywood to a taper that remotely matched the curve of the arched back. somehow the neck block has avoided creeping outwards nevertheless ! It was the first Gretsch I got back in the 80's,when I got the collecting bug.

    It has the hi-lo trons,which have the same size shell as the more advanced Filtertrons. Except,instead of having 2 separate coils like the hum bucking Filtertrons,the insides of the pickup housings are half empty since the hi-lo trons have only one coil. And a very thin one at that. Another rather less than honest gimmick they visited upon the public.

    However,I honed the frets down,and lowered the strings to within a few molecules' widths of buzzing on them,and it plays quite well. Better than the new Japanese copies being sold under the Gretsch badge today. They have necks that are just too narrow for my large hands.

    On the other hand,I have a 1954(I think) Gretsch that is quite a nicely made instrument. Still plywood(but that is an advantage in an electric guitar). The F holes are very neatly bound. It has a decent finish,and rather than suffering from the more usual problem of the neck being set so that too low a bridge would be necessary(if Gretsch bridges came that low!),the neck is tilted back more than necessary,so that the bridge has to be elevated a bit. An advantage if the body ever starts to bend as some do,making the action too high.

    I have a another Gretsch,a 1954 Gretsch Country Gentleman whose model number insists that it MUST be a Cadillac Green color(Gretsch COULD have at least selected a more ATTRACTIVE green!),but it is a brown sunburst. I have removed the pickups and checked every place Iavailable on this guitar for a SMIDGEN of green to have been left in a subsequent refinishing. There is none to be found. I am certain that the finish is original. The guitar itself is quite nicely made,though.

    In one of my books is a picture of a Gretsch peghead that says "Gertsch". The slanted block letters can fit interchangeably into the spaces punched through the veneer peghead overlay.

    Some Gretsch guitars are made of curly maple veneer. Most are plain. No rhyme or reason in it. Setzer's stolen 6120 was curly,I'm pretty sure. So is the Setzer model I have,made in Japan. They CALL it curly maple,but,believe me,I HAVE observed that it is curly ANIGRE. Maple does not have those little pores in the wood! Oh,well,most Gretsch experts fail to identify that the brown veneer strip up the center of the necks is WALNUE. Not whatever they say it is. I forget.

    When I was a teenager,I was very pleased to get to play a 6120 Gretsch at a friend of a friend's house. At the time it was a new 1957! I noticed the round wood plug on the heel of the neck and was mystified. That COULDN'T be covering a SCREW ? NO WAY!! Ah yes,it WAS covering a screw ! They didn't trust their dovetail neck joint fitting jobs,did they? Well,it HAS to be there to be authentic,so my 1958 6120 repro,which is the one I made just before those Japanese repros started popping up,has the plug,complete with the screw underneath!!

    Such are the vagaries of the Gretsch guitar in history. But Chet played one,even though Gretsch couldn't get it through their heads that he was a COUNTRY player,NOT A WESTERN player. So,they started cow branding their guitars,and scratching ill drawn,and OFF CENTER cacti on the mother of toilet seat fingerboards,and cow heads. Chet didn't like the orange color,either,but he was young and thrilled to have his name on ANY guitar at the time,he wrote. At least he got relief when the dark mahogany Country Gentleman came out,sans the Western motifs.(Or is that motives,as the English say)? As might be expected,in spite of all the hoopla that Gretsch heaped upon their guitars in every detail, that dark mahogany stain is nothing more than Mowhawk alcohol based stain. I have a gallon bottle of it,left over when I cut the neck down thinner for a man who is a marvelous player,but has short fingers. It matched perfectly,and blended seamlessly with the original color. Was I aggravated when he SOLD that guitar,which I had worked on for a low price,since we are friendly. I won't be cutting down any more necks for him! He's always trading guitars off. But,he'll never find another one with a neck to fit his hand. I just don't understand some people. I'm sure he didn't need the money.

  5. #20
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    Re post #10: My Brian Setzer Gretsch came with a graphite nut. I got rid of it and made an aluminum one ala 1958 model 6120 Gretsch guitars. BECAUSE soft plastic graph tech nuts HURT THE TONE of the open notes.

    Bone is acually harder than Ivory both for nuts and bridge saddles because it's harder than ivory. Guess we just have to put up with the down the road greasy,translucent,dirty appearance of the bone.

    Gretsch used aluminum on their 1958 model 6120 Chet Atkins guitars because he had seen Selmer Macafferi(sp?) guitars like Django was playing, They had a zero fret. It took Gretsch a fair amount of time to respond to Chet's requests. Probably they had a bunch of non zero fret fingerboards to use up first. And,from what I've seen,Gretsch had their eye on the DOLLAR above everything else. So,to please Chet,they at least installed aluminum nuts instead of the zero fret.

    However,when ANYONE else(including Gretsch) installs zero frets,they always use a BIG FAT,TALL ONE. instead of just using a fret the same as the other frets. This makes the string clearance at the 1st fret too high. I spend time filing that big fat zero fret down. It is a nuisance! There is no reason to use such a high fret. It may be,you say,to prevent buzzing. But WHY don't the strings buzz when pressed down on the FIRST fret,if that is true(or rather NECESSARY)? A regular fret would do just fine.

  6. #21
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    O.K.,I have repeatedly complained about the quality of the original Gretsch guitars. WHY do I like them ? Well,I DO like the ones that made it out of the factory properly built. I like their shape. I'm particularly aware of the curves of the cut aways on guitars. Gretsches have a nice one. Old Epiphone shapes STINK. Gibson got it right. Particularly on certain models like the Tal Farlow. I like the F holes on Gretschs. But NOT the teeny,shrunk up one silk screened onto Country Gentlemen. (Or stenciled).

    So,I'm saying I like the asthetics of Gretsch guitars. And,I also like the TONE of those Filtertron pickups. They are not as powerful as Gibson humbuckers(which have MUCH bigger coils). But,the more lightly wound coils of the Filtertrons give prettier,cleaner high notes,and good bass notes. Rockers like the more powerful Gibsons because it is easier to get them to distort. That is not important today. There are pedals which allow you to do whatever you want anyway. The proof of this is that many play Fender guitars,which,especially the Telecasters,have a VERY small coil,especially in the neck pickup. It's even smaller than those "lipstick tube" pickups that Danelectro used. Even Jimmy Hendricks used a Stratocaster.

    Chet did not like the big F holes. He had a D'Angelico that his brother gave him. I never liked the little F holes on those. Chet made a RUBBING on a piece of paper and sent that to Gretsch,recommending they use THAT shape. Gretsch did. But then they had the shape of the D'Angelico F hole MINUS the binding. Which made them entirely too small. I think that no designer was consulted about this. Someone with a decent eye HAD to have made the original shapes for Gretsch guitars. But,he was NOT one of the executives,making decisions in later years,it seems.

    I have noticed over the years that Gretsch shapes slightly changed. On LATER 6120's the bodies are "stretched" a bit. Earlier ones are a bit more squat. I prefer the earlier shapes. Why this happened,I have no idea. The stretched ones are still acceptable,but noticeably stretched if you have a god eye.
    Last edited by george wilson; 02-22-2016 at 10:28 AM.

  7. #22
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    Steve

    The market for musical instruments is always changing, so I don't think there will be a single answer to your question.
    In the 70's, yes I go back that far, some of the guitars coming out of japan were incredible. For acoustics most notably the Suzuki series, with the W5025, being at he top of the pile. If you ever hear of a W5025 for sale, run to buy it!. The Tenada series guitars were also incredible. The D-149 was a beautiful instrument.
    I used to own a late 60's Yamaha acoustic that was the equal of anything I've ever played for acoustic jazz. I've always regretted selling that Yamaha.
    I lost my W5025 in a fire in '78, along with an Ibanez solid body and a Rickenbacker bass, and replaced it with a Martin D-35, in 79'( which I still have). The Suzuki was $250.00 new in '77, the Martin close to $900.00 new. The Martin never had the "punch", through the range, that the Suzuki did,and the Tenada, blew them both away.
    I also owned the original Ibanezs', and still own a 1977 Artist 2619. ( It was supposedly owned by Mackey Feary at one time, but that could be a guitar shop tale, as it would have made Mackey and myself it's only owners, based on how long I've owned it. I bought it in '79-'80 in downtown Honolulu.) I've not seen a poplar Ibanez, mine have been maple.
    The point being, that at one point in time the Japanese musical instrument had to be heavily subsidized to turn out the quality of some of the instruments that hit the US. Is the quality still dollar for dollar better in Japanese instruments? I doubt it is any longer because the markets have normalized themselves. Production run guitars seem pretty "junky" to me when I look at them, no matter where they're made.
    Last edited by Mike Cutler; 03-06-2016 at 11:47 AM.
    "The first thing you need to know, will likely be the last thing you learn." (Unknown)

  8. #23
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    A correction to a typo I made in post #20,second line: I MEANT that bone was BETTER for tone than ivory because it is HARDER. The downside to bone is that it gets dirty and greasy looking from finger oil over the years.

  9. #24
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    Gibson Nashville only builds SG's, Les Paul's and Firebirds.
    Brian Robison
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