Are Japanese Instruments Really Superior?

[Steve H Graham]

I'm wondering if there is any consensus here on the quality of Japanese instruments.

I have 4 Gibson instruments. The years of manufacture are 1966, 1977 (roughly), 1996, and 2013. The first two are very nice. The second two...the lacquer looks like I put it on with a spray can. One has an extra piece of mother of pearl next to an inlay. They play just fine, but the Chinese Epiphone I bought in 2010 seems to have better QC.

I have three Japanese electrics. One is an old Matsumoku Burny Les Paul. The other two are History (Fujigen) guitars. Everything is perfect, except, oddly, the hole for the end peg on the Burny is slightly off. The electronics the History guitars came with are nothing to write home about, but that stuff is easy to replace.

I really want to get a top-quality semihollow, but I am tired of disappointing Gibsons. I am thinking about ordering a Seventy Seven (made in Nagano) instead.

People say the Japanese are as good as any woodworkers anywhere. Is it really true?

[Allan Speers]

Dunno about superior, but Gibsons are ridiculously overpriced. You are clearly paying for the name.


Historically, a lot of Jap guitars were made out of Poplar. (esp Ibanez.) Poplar is considered junk wood by most major US manufacturers, yet most small builders say it's one of the best tonewoods available, so there's that.

The wood & the finish are pretty much everything, since anything else can be changed.

One big deal is to look at both the bridge and the screws that hold it into the body. Quality cast steel, and deep screws made of stainless or titanium help transfer more vibration into the body, which results in a more responsive instrument. - But these can easily be retrofitted.


Semi-hollow guitars are a strange category, though. If you get too MUCH vibration, then there's a feedback issue. Some of the best SH guitars were made with plywood tops, (ES 335) so go figure.... You should also realize that a semi-hollow guitar will never sound like a solid, no matter what, as the body has a significantly lower resonant frequency. (A Hollow-T is most definitely NOT a Telecsater!) As a professional engineer & producer, I mostly stay away from them as I don't like where they sit in the mix. However, there are definitely exceptions to that rule. Blues, jazz-rock, etc.

Just be sure you know what you want. Gibson currently makes a small-bodied semi-hollow, sort of a Les Paul sized 335, which sounds pretty good. You might want to check that out.

[Steve H Graham]

I just bought a Gibson, and the finish would get a B in a high school shop class.

I guess I'm just trying to confirm my own observations. I paid something like $700, including shipping, for a used Japanese ES335 clone, and it's a considerably nicer guitar than the ES195 I just bought. The ES195 has a great fretboard, because Gibson uses a Plek machine, but it's not actually better than a good neck made by human beings.

The Japanese guitar I bought runs for something like $900 new. It's just hard for me to believe the Japanese can make a superior instrument at that price point without cutting corners somewhere. The wood is perfect. The finish is perfect. I don't see any cheap materials or shortcuts anywhere. But the same instrument from Gibson, with finish flaws and glue drips, would cost $3000.

[Halgeir Wold]

Not trying to stir things up here, but are there any logical reason that japanese craftsmen should be inferior to US ones ???
From what I've seen of japanese arts and crafts, the answer is NO. They sure are the masters of lacquer work.....

[Steve H Graham]

Not at all. Seems like people have much higher regard for Japanese woodworking than American and European woodworking.

[Halgeir Wold]

I was not trying to diminish one for the other, - not at all. There are solid traditions of high quality work in all camps, although somehow it seems like the respect for quality crafts have diminished conciderably in our western world. Occationally one might even hear the comment " Hand made ?? Yuk! ".. guess it says most or all.......

Reminds me of the story of a little boy who wanted dairy milk, not cows milk....

[george wilson]

Since Gibson moved to Nashville,which was some time ago,they have suffered several problems with the plant and with personnel. They lost many of the old time craftsmen,who stayed in kalamazoo. Not wanting to leave extended families and old friends. Quite understandable. Even back in the 60's,I saw a Humming Bird in a store,with thickness planer marks all over its back! Lacquered over with a thick piano finish,but quite clearly visible. And,that guitar got out of the factory like that! I found a source for pre glued,extremely fine grained Sitka spruce tops. But,they were made of 1/8" thick SLICED veneer,so that the integrity of the wood was shattered by being sliced across the grain. The wood was really crushed between the grains,though it was not visible to the eye. You could bend those tops into a cylinder shape!! They were crap! They cost $1.25 each. Many times cheaper than the usual SAWN top wood I was used to buying. I mean,those tops were CHEAP as DIRT! I also found out that they were the SAME TOPS that KAY was using. Kay was about at the Harmony brand level,WAY below what Gibson had been!

The new factory in Nashville was not air conditioned and humidity controlled. That caused major problems. The new owner was in it for the money,and just about ran the name into the ground. The 70's was a low spot in Gibson's history. I think the 60's was also. And,people are paying a premium for 60's VINTAGE instruments!! If they only knew what I'd found out!!

Then,a new owner bought Gibson,and set about trying to rebuild the quality of the instruments. They may still be having problems,though.

As far as Japanese Gibsons are concerned,I have a repro of the 18 1/2" wide Epiphone Emperor,made in Japan for Gibson. I think they only ever made about 50 of these. Gibson apparently could not find wood wide enough to build them. My Epiphone is of immaculate craftsmanship,and is of the highest quality.

The Japanese have a totally different society than ours,and a different work ethic. The way their system is set up,I think the Japanese live to do their work(like I have done all my life. But,I WON'T eat SUSHI!!!). But,in America,it is hard to find people oriented like that,period.

Look at us today: The hamburger flippers want $15.00 an hour. They never bothered to learn salable skills. I have to tell them up to 6 times that I don't want CHEESE on my hamburger. They are trying to make SUMMER jobs into CAREERS. So are the ticket punchers in Williamsburg. They DON'T WANT any responsibility.(They have told me that many times). I never tried to make big money,nor never really cared about it that much. The work was what counted. I don't have expensive habits,or take big vacations(or,vacations at all). I think the Japanese must sort of be this way. Rant over.

[Steve H Graham]

I truly understand your frustration with the burger kids. I order the same McDonald's breakfast over and over, from the same people, and I would say they get it right about 25% of the time. They want us to reward them for failure, so they can be losers their entire lives instead of learning from their mistakes. I am really looking forward to the robot cashiers companies are using to ward off the $15 commandos.

Here in Miami, "bilingual" means "fluent Spanish and four words of English," so they have a tendency to put non-English-speakers at the registers, meaning they are totally unable to communicate with the 25% of the customer base that doesn't speak Spanish. The funniest question I ever got from one of them: "who sandwich?" I still don't know what that meant.

Sometimes the register person is friendly and gets the order right with no repetition. It's kind of sad, because you know those people will be gone in a month. They always move on fast. No competent person has to work at McDonald's very long.

One nice thing about American instruments is that they hold value and appreciate. You really have to buy Japanese guitars right. I think I'm going to blow off my quest for an ES355 and look into getting a Japanese clone with dogear P90s. I still haven't seen a Japanese acoustic I really liked, but the electrics have proven their worth to me.

[Mark Greenbaum]

I have had old Gibbies (63 SG Std; 59 GT-LP std. (both stolen many years ago), and a 2001 GT-LP std (anchor weight)), and I own a Yamaha SG-1000 from early 80's the craftsmanship on the Yamaha is exquisite, and the playability is top notch. New Ibanez are also very well made, though probably in China. New Gibsons - NAH - Oldies before they moved to Nashville, even Norlin made are a better investment. The Heritage guitars (mad e in the old Gibson K'zoo factory by former gibson employees and their children) are also top notch. Get a Japanese lawsuit guitar and be farther ahead of the new deal game. Gibsons have priced themselves out of the contention for most folks. But I can say now that the PLEK every guitar off the line, there's no one better than the next. But they still miss the mark in my books.

[Joe Beaulieu]

Hey Folks,

It is interesting the connection between guitarists and woodworkers. There seems to be an inordinate number of woodworkers who are guitarists. That is the case here.

I have been playing guitar for close to 50 years. I have been collecting instruments for very near that long. I have owned almost every manufacturer, and certainly my very fair share of Gibsons and of Fenders. I currently own an absolutely gorgeous 1981 Blond ES335 DOT that is one of the nicest guitars you will ever play. I have done my own pant load of work on it to get it there, but it wouldn't have been possible if it hadn't been a very nice instrument to start. I put on a Tonepro's bridge and stop tail, and a Graphtec nut in it. I also changed out he pups to Tom Holmes pickups. Now it is a stunning guitar. I also own a 2003 Les Paul Class 5 Custom Shop that is a great example of a classic Les Paul. Again I outfitted it with TonePros and a new nut and in this case WCR pickups, but the core guitar is tremendous. On the other hand I recently sold a 2012 ES-175 that while very well made, I found lifeless. I had bought it new. I think Gibson is hit or miss in the last 30 years or so.

To the contrary - many of the Japanese Strats I have owned were or lower quality than the American made. This was intentional, but the case regardless. There is no doubt that the Fender company was and is doing some very good work in Corona CA and US made instruments are their top of the line. I have four US Strats that are all the best Strats I have owned and I have owned good Strats all my life. Clapton plays a US current Strat - so does my #1 guitar hero - Jeff Beck. They are playing current models because they are very good guitars. With the possible exception of mass produced Gibsons, I really believe we are in the glory days of guitar manufacture. Makers are producing the highest quality instruments ever made. CNC is a great benefit, as is Plek. Their instruments are consistent and we have some of the best pickup builders ever in guys like Jason Lollar and Lindy Fralin, among many. I own guitars from some of the elite makers today - Suhr and Collings to name a couple. I can tell you the acoustic Collings are incredibly well made guitars. I would challenge you to find a flaw with a magnifying glass and calipers. The Suhr electric I own is equally exceptional. It plays like butter, sounds outrageous, and is one of the best built guitars I have ever owned. And both makers support is outstanding.

So don't despair - while Gibson may be really struggling (they were voted the #1 worst place to work in the United States by some magazine not to long ago...) I think the balance of makers are doing tremendous work. We are seeing the best guitars ever right now. Japanese included, no doubt, but the Americans are doing very very well. My $.02.

JB

[Shawn Pixley]

I think the question you're trying to ask is about Japanese Gibson only. I have two Les Pauls (HB& P90) but for each of these, I must have played a hundred each. Gibson is very inconsistant at best. Both of mine were from the custom shop in the end (and no, I didn't pay list). I did play manyJapanese Gibsons, both here and in Japan. They are more consistent, and generally better. I don't remember the older japanese label for them.

The japanese Gibson made repros of the '50's LP Specials that were very good. Much better than the american version. I don't know as much about the more exotic models.

if your question is more general, "are Japanese instruments more superior?" Then, no. There is no one country that makes the best guitars. Heritage, Paul Reed Smith, and many boutiques in the USA make great instruments. Ibanez has many fine instruments. Lowden, Goodall, Collings, Froggy Bottom, Martin, etc... All make great guitars.

[Steve H Graham]

I have two American Fenders. One--a 1997 Strat--is just about perfect. The other, a fairly recent American Special Telecaster, is also very nice, but I had to go to three stores to find one without major paint defects. I mean MAJOR, like ruts you can actually feel, parallel to the grain.

My favorite guitar is a Chinese Epiphone! It's a P93 Riviera, which is like a cheap ES355 with three dogear pickups and a Bigsby. The pickups were not very good, so I replaced them with Lollars. Now the sound is excellent. The fretboard is a joy to work with. The quality control is very good, too, although you would never mistake it for an expensive guitar. I like it so much I considered getting a Sheraton and putting new pickups in it.

I would recommend Chinese Epiphones to any beginner, with the understanding that the electronics might not be all that great.

[george wilson]

Re: the burger flingers- AFTER I tell them 6 times NO CHEESE,about 1/2 the time I still get cheese and ONIONS(which I REALLY hate,because the "cooks" don't bother to look a little more carefully at the order. $15.00? Bah,HUMBUG!!!!!!

A guy I have started teaching guitar to has a Mexican Telecaster. I can't tell that it is inferior in any observable way from a USA made one. I don't know how the pickups compare to a USA made one,but it sounds terrific through my Standel amp. But,what wouldn't?

[Steve H Graham]

I don't know if it's true, but I have read that the wood used for Mexican fingerboards is thinner. I read about some guy sanding through his.

The neck pocket on my "American" Telecaster has "Valdez" stamped on it. Not sure what that's all about.

[Alan Caro]

george wilson,

As I only ever played Classical, I've had limited contact with them new-fangled elctricitalistic ones. But, as a kid I was a quick convert, when bowled over by the first electric I ever played. This belonged to a second cousin in Lousiville, KY who I visited in 1966- age 10. This was a bright red hollow body Gibson with f-holes and all the hardware was gold-plated including what I remember as three pickups. My cousin said it had cost $950 which seemed like a fortune to me. Even though this was from the parallel guitar universe I tried it- some Bach Lute suite movements and I was amazed how easy it was to play. The neck of course is narrower than classical, but there was something about the geometry that gave it a fantastic, easy action. The sound was striking- I wish I'd paid attention tot he amplifier, but I couldn't take my eyes off the workmanship and finish. Ever since that time, I've taken electric guitar more seriously as craft exponents and visited Norms' Rare Guitars in Los Angeles quite a few times as I passed by often. The atmosphere there is fantastic- knowledgable maniac lining up to try Stairway on some $20,000 Tele that van Halen had seen from a distance. The only other electric guitar that glowed with this quality is the 1958 Gretsch copy you made- better than the originals I saw at Norm's.

Another interesting brush with the Fender realm was in Del Mar, CA. In about 1995, I designed a house overlooking the Del Mar racetrack and the next door neighbor was the head Fender designer- sorry forgot his name. He apparently did a lot of work at home but there was a Fender facility in Fullerton about 8 or 10 miles away He had a Silicon Graphics Unix workstation- $50,000 then and he showed me the 3D CAD model of a new Strat and 3D CAD was cutting edge then. He worked in a reclining chair with the keyboard and mouse on a slanted table and the monitor was across the room- a 32" CRT. He could click on a detail of a milled cut-out to let in the pickup or wiring and the designation and properties of each were annotated. After years of visiting the Musical Instrument Maker's shop in Colonial Williamsburg, this looked like NASA had stepped into instrument making.

On a different tack, you mentioned in your last post about the craft tradition and the kind of dissipation of motivation to actually make something. This has been a theme with me as well for many years considering that even in an automated CAD /CAM world where you can load an AutoCAD drawing into a Cad.Cam router /milling system and make some complicated stuff. And now, the world of 3D printing is going to take over. Here is a kind of touching lament "A Fraught Search for Succession in Craftsmanship" (Andrew Plotsky, "The Atlantic" 1.29.16.) from a fellow- George- who sort of accidentally learned hand boot-making and now envisions he is the end of a line and that all these painstakingly axquired skills will only evaporate into thin air when he quits. This touched a little cord for me as I spent those Summers at the boot shop in Colonial Williamsburg and that was a semi-accidental assignment for me too as my interest was instrument making. I had never touched a piece of uncut leather previously and before I left- even though my job was only talking to the fiends we had to refer to as "visitors", through osmosis I eventually made a pair of shoes entirely by hand that I still have. In my view, to learn anything real, you have to be there in the room. And most people will never even look for those rooms in the first place.

Warning: graphic scenes of melancholic boot-making: http://www.theatlantic.com/video/ind.../georges-boots

This is exactly on the themes you mentioned earlier. His would-be apprentices would rather deep fry extruded potato-style poly-emulsion from a 55-gallon drum into French Fries than think and take creative action.

Alan Caro

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