Ouch--Getting Saw Stop

[glenn bradley]

the brake is toast because . . .

There is no welding involved and not much heat. The blade simply digs into the soft, honeycombed aluminum. A little wiggled will separate the two. IME, you're usually left with a serviceable blade, though it won't be your "fine cut" blade.

Yes, sorry, not trying to be pedantic or argumentative but, Nicholas' description of the process is incorrect. Not that anyone wants to be "experienced" with a Saw Stop firing but, the cartridge pops up into the blade path stopping rotation and the inertia shift causes the blade to drop. The whole thing is very anti-climactic and makes almost no noise other than a 'thunk' when heard through hearing protection with your saw and DC running. Re-use of the blade is not recommended (for the same reasons sharpeners have stopped repairing blades damaged, in almost any way, as discussed in a different thread) although it is removed from the cartridge without much fuss.

I had one firing (my fault) when I failed to notice a piece of foil tape on a piece of stock. A second firing was due to cutting some HDPE plastic that was anti-static treated and therefor conductive. In both cases the override function for a test cut would have saved the day but, I was unaware of the potential at the time. I have used the override function to test for any questionable cuts but, have never found a condition that would have caused a firing (of course when I check, I'm OK ). The first firing changed my attentiveness to foreign materials, the HDPE was just my fault for not realizing what I was cutting . . . I sure didn't save any money by scrounging that scrap HDPE to use for jig material ;-)

[Erik Loza]

...I need to be searching for lesser well known small sliders. $2-3k budget.

The Minimax/SCMi SC3 has been around forever and seems to pop up on the used market pretty frequently. Another option would be a Robland. Out of curiosity, I just went onto Ebay and there's a used Robland E300 for >$3K.

For your budget, I would expect a 15-20-year old machine that will probably need some spare parts (always budget for that) and probably is 3-phase, so you will also want to budget for an inverter, as well. In my experience, "small, single-phase sliders that are turn-key ready" at budget prices (assuming we are talking European built machines, not Chaiwanese) are very hard to come by. This is not to discourage you but I talk to guys all the time who are in the same boat and the conversation goes either one of two ways: Either they come to the realization that by the time they put enough money and work into that "auction gem" to get it back into shape, the new machine is not so much of a stretch after all. Or they just don't have the money, period, and will wait for years for that perfect scenario to show up ("lightly used, single-phase, all the accessories, within 1-hour drive, and half the price of new...").

Anyhow, I'm not trying to characterize owners and certainly, there are exceptions to this, but I see the same patterns over and over again. Guys fall into two categories. Ones who want a "project" and then ones who want a "turn-key machine". In my experience, you can have some overlap there in the pro market, where shops already have three-phase power, a commercial freight dock, etc. but when it comes to home ww'ers, rarely do those two paths seem to meet. At least among the folks I talk to.

Best of luck in your search. I hope you find something that meets your needs.

Erik

[sebastian phillips]

Hi EriK, this is a question for you:
"Wouldn't a machine like your SC2 Classic be a direct competitor and alternative to an ICS Sawstop?"
It seems like the cost of an SC2 would be very close to an ICS with their "sliding table", but the buyer would be getting a true short stroke slider.
I guess a negative could be the right tilt argument for rips off the fence, but otherwise seems like these two saws should be in direct competition..

[Erik Loza]

Hi EriK, this is a question for you:
"Wouldn't a machine like your SC2 Classic be a direct competitor and alternative to an ICS Sawstop?"
It seems like the cost of an SC2 would be very close to an ICS with their "sliding table", but the buyer would be getting a true short stroke slider.
I guess a negative could be the right tilt argument for rips off the fence, but otherwise seems like these two saws should be in direct competition..

Sebastian, you are correct on the pricing. That machine might be a direct competitor to the SC2 Classic but I never seem to have the converation with customers. Most of the guys I talk to already are sort of "sold on the slider concept", if that makes sense. I think you sort of have to be, to have that conversation, because it's work to get info on any Minimax product, whereas info on the various brands of cabinet saws is abundant on the web. In other words, guys can make their own decision beforfe even talking to a rep like me. And maybe they do. I'm sure that I'd sell more sliders if SCM did a better job with marketing here in the States.

To answer your question, though, my response to anyone is that no matter how great a cabinet saw is, it's strength is cutting parallel, not cutting a square. Plus, never really having your hands near the blade for anything aside from ripping thin stock. I've sold hundreds of sliding table saws over the years and have yet to hear about a customer having an accident on one. Sure, it's possible but it just hasn't happened to of my owners. Also, I have never personally had a customer tell me they regretted getting rid of their cabinet saw and moving up to a slider. Some folks might but it's not a comment I've gotten from one of my owners.

Erik

[Keith Pleas]

FWIW there's a KS-3000 in the Seattle Craigslist for $2750:

Search on: 14" Sliding Table Saw KS-3000

[Scott Brandstetter]

Marty
I can't disagree with you on the jointer. I appreciate the video of the upgrade to your jointer. I am going to give it serious consideration for my Grizzly jointer. Not sure (not in front of the jointer now) how I can adapt mine but would sure like to.

To my way of thinking, the jointer's got to be the most scary machine when it comes to the potential for "pulling your hand in and down". Just the thought of such an accident gives me the willies!

I know this thread isn't about jointer safety, but because I felt the porkchop-style guard that's so common here in North America wasn't giving me the margin of safety I was looking for, I elected to go with a European-style bridge guard when I had to add one to my vintage 16" jointer which was made in 1950. Here's the small video I had a machinist make for me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DPdTNGxVMY

[Patrick Curry]

David, you're like a collector of fine antique autos! Those are all beautiful. Thanks for sharing

[Patrick Curry]

This kind of takes me back to the point I was trying to make earlier. The market for sliders in the US has been in industry, and so my $2-3k budget is maybe 20-25% of the original cost of a slider- a saw in need of repair with expensive parts.

Eric, what you can do to help is either start selling more $4-6k sliders to dentists looking for a new hobby (within a one hour drive from Louisville, Ky), or convince SCM to make and sell $3k sliders for hobbyist. I'd like to think there could be some trickle down design and manufacturing advantages that could make lower price points possible if the unit sales were high enough?...well here's to hoping anyway.

[eugene thomas]

Well know lot of people like to pile on grizzly but my replacement for my new in 1994 1023 grizzly saw will probably be the G0623x grizzly slider and it's around 3 grand...

[Erik Loza]

This kind of takes me back to the point I was trying to make earlier. The market for sliders in the US has been in industry, and so my $2-3k budget is maybe 20-25% of the original cost of a slider- a saw in need of repair with expensive parts.

Eric, what you can do to help is either start selling more $4-6k sliders to dentists looking for a new hobby (within a one hour drive from Louisville, Ky), or convince SCM to make and sell $3k sliders for hobbyist. I'd like to think there could be some trickle down design and manufacturing advantages that could make lower price points possible if the unit sales were high enough?...well here's to hoping anyway.

Patrick, you're preaching to the choir. Lack of marketing and exposure why Euro machinery in general struggles to gain traction here in the US. Minimax in particular. Amazing to believe that SCM Group is the largest (and not "sort of" the largest, by far and away the largest mfr. of industrial ww'ing machinery in the world) and still, is not that easy to find info about. I tell guys all the time: By the time you add up a decent cabinet saw, jointer, planer, and shaper, you can have a full combo machine with slidiing table saw, Tersa head, etc. But, until I talk to them, the perception I hear from many folks is that it's too expensive, too exotic, etc. It's a challenge.

Erik

[Joe Calhoon]

David, you're like a collector of fine antique autos! Those are all beautiful. Thanks for sharing

I think he has some of those also.
I would like to see some inside pictures of the big warehouse his machines are in.

[Bill ThompsonNM]

David or anyone else with slider experience, would you mind mentioning a few makes and models of some shorter sliders that would be worth keeping an eye out for - used ones? SCMI, Felder/Hammer are familiar names to me, as well as Minimax. The Hammer and Minimax seem to be the two more popular makes for small shops and hobbyists. I understand they're both very well made, and also seem to retain their value. I need to be searching for lesser well known small sliders. $2-3k budget.

In your price range, note that Grizzly makes a slider for about $3k which has favorable reviews.

[David Kumm]

I think he has some of those also.
I would like to see some inside pictures of the big warehouse his machines are in.

I don't really do the car thing anymore, Joe. That is really a way to dissipate net worth. Still have a modified XKR but mainly play with old machines now. I'll never get paid for my time, but the cash outlay can at least be recovered- most of the time. Storage building has infloor radiant and a bathroom I keep dirty enough that my wife won't enter the building so life is good. Dave

[David Tolsky]

It's amazing how many of us have had cuts, even after years of woodworking. My first cut came about a month ago on my table saw with a slice across my left thumb. A real bleeder did include an ER visit and I got lucky that it didn't hit the bone. The thumb is actually on the way to regenerating. Until I can find my blade guard for the saw I've been half-ripping boards, that is, ripping halfway, stopping the saw, flipping the board and finishing the cut. I like my fingers too so I'm keeping them away from the blade. I'm also considering a Grippppr push block, which I will probably do instead of a blade guard. I can't afford the Saw Stop.

[Erik Loza]

Some rep gave me a Gripper at one of the trade shows, years and years ago. Used it for a number of demos and remember liking it.

Erik