Framing a wall in the shop - questions

[James Spadaro]

Hey guys, I have a basement shop disconnected from the house HVAC. It's basically a half-sunk walkout basement, but it's under the house - you have to go outside to get to the door. It's kind of like a cold room in Canada. The house is insulated against it, it is not insulated itself.

The walls are concrete block. One wall has some white paint on it - I don't know if that's supposed to be waterproof or not, but the whole thing is bone dry year round.

Anyway, I would like to hang my tools, and I figured rather than putting french cleats in the block with tapcons, it'd be better to just go ahead and frame the wall.

I was considering framing it and just putting a couple pieces of OSB sheeting over the framing, screwing my hangers to the OSB, and calling it a day. What I wanted to ask was if I needed to worry about insulation or a vapor barrier in this case?

The other option, of course, would be to just do french cleats directly to the studs. I would imagine moisture would be less of a concern in this case, as it would vent better?

Help is much appreciated!

[Robert Engel]

Seems to me a few tapcons are a whole lot easier than building a whole wall.....

[James Spadaro]

Seems to me a few tapcons are a whole lot easier than building a whole wall.....

It'd be a couple dozen tapcons vs ~ 12 or 18 2x4's to frame a 12 or 16' wall. I don't plan to drywall the sucker, just frame it.

Plus, honestly, the more I use french cleats, the less impressed I am. I'm not hanging cabinets here, just wanting to have a solid wood panel to screw some one-off hangers into.

[Marty Tippin]

Frame the wall, leaving an inch or so of space between the studs and concrete blocks, then leave the ends of the wall open and don't insulate it. You should get enough air circulation to alleviate any issues with condensation.

[James Spadaro]

Frame the wall, leaving an inch or so of space between the studs and concrete blocks, then leave the ends of the wall open and don't insulate it. You should get enough air circulation to alleviate any issues with condensation.

Thanks, that's very helpful and makes sense. What if someone wanted to insulate, drywall, finish it in the future? Would any kind of vapor barrier have to go in, or would that be set to fill with insulation and finish?

Trying to do this so the framing could stay put going forward if possible.

[Marty Tippin]

Thanks, that's very helpful and makes sense. What if someone wanted to insulate, drywall, finish it in the future? Would any kind of vapor barrier have to go in, or would that be set to fill with insulation and finish?

Trying to do this so the framing could stay put going forward if possible.

You'd probably want a polyethylene vapor barrier between the drywall and studs, and use unfaced insulation. You could also probably get away with regular foil-faced insulation batts stapled to the studs.

[Stew Hagerty]

OK, here's my 2 cents:

I'd build a wall with 2" thick foam between the blocks & the studs. Then I would wire & plumb for anything you may want or anticipate wanting in the future through the wall itself. Then I would either fill the cavities with fiberglass batts or spray foam. Finally I would cover the whole thing in a layer of heavy plastic sheeting before putting up some B/C Plywood sheeting. You're done. No matter what you or a future owner wants to do down there, it's ready for it. Well except for whatever heating system you want to add down there.

[James Spadaro]

It sounds like there are a few ways to skin this cat as far as vapor barriers and concrete block.

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated. I think I'm going to take a hybrid approach based on what you've all said:

- Do the foam stew suggested to set the framing back off the wall as Marty suggested, and then just screw down the OSB without any further insulation or vapor barrier, but leave the ends open as Marty suggested.

My only real goal is to construct it so that if I wanted to finish it in later, I wouldn't have to take down the framing. Sounds like I'm safe there if I put up some foam. Thanks guys!

[Marty Tippin]

Another possible option would be to use Dow Thermax insulation sheets (http://building.dow.com/en-us/produc...b-7bf6634d13a0) or a similar product (there are a few different manufacturers today). You'd install this directly against the concrete wall and it's approved for leaving exposed in a living space, so you don't have to do anything else. You could then hang sheets of OSB directly on the insulation, anywhere you need them, using TapCons through to the concrete and be done with it. No framing of any kind.

It's expensive stuff, but it's easy to install and gives you an immediate thermal break against the uninsulated side and provides R-13 equivalent in 2" thick. Plus it's white so gives you better lighting.

You won't find this at any of the BORGs; contact a construction materials supplier in your area and ask about it. Probably a special-order so they may have a minimum that you can't meet but worth checking on anyway.

I finished the entire inside perimeter of my basement with a similar brand (whose name escapes me at the moment), primarily to make it easier to heat and cool the basement, as we run a small business down there and it was impossibly cold in the winter. We keep it 68F now all winter long and the basement heating zone only runs once or twice a day.

[Stew Hagerty]

It sounds like there are a few ways to skin this cat as far as vapor barriers and concrete block.

Thanks for all the help guys, much appreciated. I think I'm going to take a hybrid approach based on what you've all said:

- Do the foam stew suggested to set the framing back off the wall as Marty suggested, and then just screw down the OSB without any further insulation or vapor barrier, but leave the ends open as Marty suggested.

My only real goal is to construct it so that if I wanted to finish it in later, I wouldn't have to take down the framing. Sounds like I'm safe there if I put up some foam. Thanks guys!

Speaking as a former General Contractor, you wouldn't need to leave the framing uninsulated, except for the foam board. Placing the heavy mil plastic behind the sheathing (I'd recommend decent B/C Ply in lieu of OSB to hang items from) serves as your vapor barrier not the foam sheets. So as long as the basement walls remain leak free, you would not need to worry about moisture buildup. Besides, adding fiberglass batts or spray foam between the studs will significantly increase your R-Value and therefore save you lots of bucks down the road in heating bills (you said you're in Canada right? Brrr).

[roger wiegand]

I'd put 4" of rigid foam up against the wall then either frame your wall inside of that or hang plywood directly on it with lag bolts back to the concrete. You'll be dramatically more comfortable.

[James Spadaro]

Thanks! Well, after getting down in my shop last night, I realized that I have a bunch of ducting that will be in the way, so I may go back to the drawing board.