Non-profit volunteer shop - Saw Stop or Tracksaw? And more...

[Doug Hobkirk]

I work at Household Goods Recycling of Mass.

"In 2014, 650 volunteers walked through the doors of Household Goods donating 38,000 hours! Our volunteers work with 321 social service agencies to help 2,500 families rebuild their homes and start their lives over."

Workshop details:

• There are about 30 people who work in the workshop (25' x 25') which has an old Craftsman table saw, a chop saw, a broken bandsaw, 2 workbenches (12' and 5'), a low assembly table, and LOTS of storage (hand tools, corded tools, hardware, wood, knobs, etc.).
• There is no "boss" and there is no person who is there most of the time. Volunteers drop in when they can. I laid the shop out (after asking for suggestions and getting approval) about 3 years ago. I spent about 80 hours setting everything up and building a nice workbench (the top out of forgotten/abandoned hardwood table leafs).
• I now go in for an hour or two on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. There are 3-4 others who also put in about the same or more hours.
• The work is repairing furniture, re-purposing items, replacing broken or missing parts. IMO, we use the table saw seldomly, but the smell (burned and/or cut wood) does linger. And there is quite a bit of foot traffic by the shop.
• All the sawdust makers (TS, chop saw, band saw) are located in one corner.
• And, significantly now that I think of it, the shop is open on two walls. My original plans included walls and a double width door, but it evolved into the benefits of easier access and expandable room. (If we start putting in a pile of expensive tools, "open access" would be changed.)

Problems:

• Obviously putting stuff away correctly is dreadful - 2" screws in the 1/2" drawer, wrong sized or trash wood on shelves, drill bits, etc.
• But there have been a lot of complaints about dust and smells.
  
  • Smells:
    
    • a restoration finish we use that stinks - we will do that outside in the future.
    • AND WOOD CUTTING SMELLS, not just burning wood from the tablesaw but even fresh pine wood on the chop saw. The chop saw is connected to a small shop vac.
    
    
  • Dust - it's visible often, even from the chop saw with vac used
  
  
• Safety, safety! Always a big issue.

Solutions sought for smells from cutting wood, dust, and safety.

So far everything has been donated, scrounged, or created by volunteers. E.g., I donated a replacement motor and fence for the saw, things I collected at garage sales. But "safety" - that's a big word. That might cause real money to be spent. So I am kicking around a couple of ideas that would benefit from your collective experience.

1. Get a SawStop - although $1500 minimum plus $250-300 whenever it "stops" (which might happen once or twice a year without provocation in "real" shops?)
2. Festool track saw with their shop vac. $1500? Some danger of theft. Some problems with educating people how to use.
   
   1. This would collect almost all the dust, but would it cut down on the cut wood smell? Or the burned wood smell?
   2. Do you see any problems replacing the TS with a track saw?
   
   
3. Dust collection -
   
   1. the shop is in the middle of the building, there is no outside exhaust but we might work that out (we own the building now).
   2. The ceiling is drop-in panels at 7.5'
   3. I don't see how a 2HP dust collector or a ceiling filter box would help much, but I don't know

Man, I wish I had started this when I had more time! But I think I've laid out the main issues. And I am sure you will ask for whatever it is I forgot to include.

Thanks, as always.

[Erik Loza]

What are you doing for dust collection, now?

Erik

[Doug Hobkirk]

What are you doing for dust collection, now?
Erik

Zero!
All we do is collect the sawdust from the TS (a bin under the saw) and a vac on the chop saw.

[Erik Loza]

Well, I think you have your answer!

Erik

[Lee Schierer]

You can eliminate the "burning smell" by doing a careful alignment on your existing saws. Also check your blades to insure they are sharp and the proper blade for what you are cutting. Using dedicated rip and crosscut blades instead of combination blades will also help.

I do volunteer work with Habitat and no one gets to use a power tool with out training by the supervisors and close observation to make sure they do in fact operate equipment safely.

[Sam Murdoch]

You can eliminate the "burning smell" by doing a careful alignment on your existing saws. Also check your blades to insure they are sharp and the proper blade for what you are cutting. Using dedicated rip and crosscut blades instead of combination blades will also help.

I do volunteer work with Habitat and no one gets to use a power tool with out training by the supervisors and close observation to make sure they do in fact operate equipment safely.

These ^ are very solid suggestions.

Otherwise - a very difficult question to answer. Are these volunteers mostly woodworkers or at any given time are there people using tools who really haven't a clue - or any training?

• A well tuned table saw with a riving knife - at the minimum - is a very versatile tool - for plywood work as well as solid lumber.

• A track saw is mostly the perfect tool for sheet goods and a compromise tool for solid wood. I think processing lumber with a track saw requires more planning than is readily obvious. Either the track saw or the table saw can create kick back and inflict damage though the Table saw has obviously more capacity to hurt severely. The track saw also requires a work table but the dust collection is resolved nicely.

• I think my inclination would be to tune up the table saw and upgrade to a good solid 14" or 16" bandsaw with the capacity to rip solid lumber and by changing out blades, more delicate work. I have a Laguna 14" SUV that 98% of the time is set up with a 3/4" carbide blade. It has completely replaced my table saw for ripping or straight lining solid wood (or crooked lining too ). Soooo much safer and more relaxed than doing the same process on the table saw. Not cheap but you might be able to get something on the secondary market that would do the job very nicely. Maybe Laguna has a program for non profits.

• Still need some dust colllection. Here is a relatively inexpensive way to deal with a few tools such as a table saw and bandsaw. NOT a complete solution by any means but it keeps the tool ports clean and most dust off the floor. - http://www.rockler.com/new-dust-righ...7HsaAsPn8P8HAQ

Hang on - I'm sure you will get lots of advice here.

[Charles P. Wright]

The table saw shouldn't burn wood. Maybe replace the blade, check alignment.

I would definitely get a dust collector; and think about automatic switches. If people don't actually turn it on it won't be any help.

[Doug Hobkirk]

These ^ are very solid suggestions.

Otherwise - a very difficult question to answer. Are these volunteers mostly woodworkers or at any given time are there people using tools who really haven't a clue - or any training?

• A well tuned table saw with a riving knife - at the minimum - is a very versatile tool - for plywood work as well as solid lumber.

• A track saw is mostly the perfect tool for sheet goods and a compromise tool for solid wood. I think processing lumber with a track saw requires more planning than is readily obvious. Either the track saw or the table saw can create kick back and inflict damage though the Table saw has obviously more capacity to hurt severely. The track saw also requires a work table but the dust collection is resolved nicely.

• I think my inclination would be to tune up the table saw and upgrade to a good solid 14" or 16" bandsaw with the capacity to rip solid lumber and by changing out blades, more delicate work. I have a Laguna 14" SUV that 98% of the time is set up with a 3/4" carbide blade. It has completely replaced my table saw for ripping or straight lining solid wood (or crooked lining too ). Soooo much safer and more relaxed than doing the same process on the table saw. Not cheap but you might be able to get something on the secondary market that would do the job very nicely. Maybe Laguna has a program for non profits.

• Still need some dust colllection. Here is a relatively inexpensive way to deal with a few tools such as a table saw and bandsaw. NOT a complete solution by any means but it keeps the tool ports clean and most dust off the floor. - http://www.rockler.com/new-dust-righ...7HsaAsPn8P8HAQ

Hang on - I'm sure you will get lots of advice here.

Responses to all your suggestions and questions:

1. The talent level is variable - most have at least some past woodworking experience, a few are pretty knowledgeable.
2. In response to Habitat -
   
   1. We are a young company. I started there 10 or 11 years ago, and I was given the keys to the building on my first day (I had dropped in to see what they did). I repaired and refinished a rocking chair my first day, finishing about 2 hours after everyone had left. Using "Restore-It", the stuff that stinks so bad it makes people complain. Now we have 3 people who are paid, we own the building, we have companies and schools sending us volunteers, we clean out dorm rooms at BC, etc.
   2. So we don't begin to have (or need, IMO) the structure of something like Habitat. I'm hoping that doesn't sound snotty or disrespectful. But we don't even have a single person who is charge, nor a "shift" manager in the shop, or whatever. Although I recognize we might get there.
   
   
3. Well-tuned saw - that falls to me, although the only table saws I've ever owned are Ryobi BT3000 sliding tables, and the only time I've used a regular saw is at HGRM. But I read, and I experiment. I've set it up with 2 featherboards on the fence and one in the miter slot. I've added a short extension on the back, added a dust collecting bin, a zero-clearance throat, and I've made a good crosscut sled.
   
   1. But the fence is the original (plus an exact duplicate I got at a garage sale) and it just isn't built very well. There's too much play.
   2. The blade is sharp, the burning is erratic - I've discussed it with a savvy engineer who comes in on Saturdays, and we can often limit it by aligning the fence carefully each time it's been moved, but even that doesn't always work.
   3. And no provision for a riving knife (that was a significant feature to me when I got my Ryobi BT3000).
   
   
4. Dust collection on chop saws is almost useless and the only good table saw DC I've noted is the shark system, which is much too complicated to get everyone to use. My guess is that about half the sawdust from both saws is not collected in the bin under the TS or the vac on the chop saw.
   
   1. So I am slowly figuring out that the TS may be a lost cause. We need a better saw (better fence, riving knife, and DC built in features).
   
   
5. Band saw - Our broken one is maybe a 12" junk model. Getting a 14" model would be good. But it's hard to imagine having our volunteers crank it up to the correct tension and remember to release the tension when they are done. Yeah, I'm being lazy, because I haven't even worked out a tensioner lever for my own 14" band saw.

Thanks.

[Mark Fisher]

As a data point, this sounds a little like our university shop. Lots of people with minimal/variable experience. There are mills, lathes, laser cutters etc. but the shop people wouldn't put in a table saw until the Saw Stop was available.....even then it is locked up to make sure people don't use it unless they are trained properly. Bandsaws, on the other hand, are available to everyone. Personally, I am planning on getting rid of my table saw and getting a bandsaw to save space and be a bit safer.....

[Allan Speers]

If you do ever get a Sawstop, just remember that it doesn't prevent the #1 TS danger, which is kickback.

Only a careful & trained user can prevent this.

[Doug Hobkirk]

As a data point, this sounds a little like our university shop. Lots of people with minimal/variable experience. There are mills, lathes, laser cutters etc. but the shop people wouldn't put in a table saw until the Saw Stop was available.....even then it is locked up to make sure people don't use it unless they are trained properly. Bandsaws, on the other hand, are available to everyone. Personally, I am planning on getting rid of my table saw and getting a bandsaw to save space and be a bit safer.....

Thanks, Mark - You are completely on point and I am mulling over both your saw suggestions.

[Jay Nossen]

I supervised set construction for high school musicals for many years. My number one concern was that one of the student volunteers would hurt themselves. We had a progression system (unofficial): show me you can assemble things and I will teach you to use a miter saw. Figure that out and I will teach you how to use a circ saw. Only then will I show you how to use a table saw. I think you are on the right track by trying to minimize this risk.

I've done a lot of breaking down of sheet goods by myself. I have a table saw with outfeed tables and a work surface for using a circular saw and a shooting board (not the same as a TS, but close enough for comparision). I go for the circ saw every time! Trying to muscle around a large sheet of ply by myself is difficult. My work surface is 2 2'x8' MDF tables on saw horses. I have 1/2" sheets of foam insulation that lay on top of the table to run the saw blade into (and keep my work surface undamaged).

[Sam Murdoch]

Responses to all your suggestions and questions:


Dust collection on chop saws is almost useless and the only good table saw DC I've noted is the shark system, which is much too complicated to get everyone to use. My guess is that about half the sawdust from both saws is not collected in the bin under the TS or the vac on the chop saw.

So I am slowly figuring out that the TS may be a lost cause. We need a better saw (better fence, riving knife, and DC built in features).

Thanks.

You are right about the chop saw being difficult to dust control BUT - the unit I suggested works pretty darn well on the Table Saw, bandsaw and the jointer. I recommended it because it works - waaaaay better than nothing and for the price - a good investment. As I said it keeps the dust ports clean and most of the dust off the floor. I use one flexible hose that I move to each tool as I need it . You might be better off to Y hoses to different machines. I also built a canvas hood around my chop box with a dust port off the top. Doesn't collect much dust but at least the cowling with the dust collector keeps the dust restricted to the table behind the chop saw.

Of course there are superior methods to collect dust but I suggested this with your limited budget in mind and the fact that currently you are using nothing.

[Jim Dwight]

I like my track saw - and my table saw (a BT3100). I wouldn't let everybody use a table saw that goes out of alignment often and has no riving knife. Does it have a guard? If somebody gets hurt... I'd put a lock on it and only let a few people who know what they are doing use it. A track saw might take some introduction but is safer than even a circular saw so it could be for general use. There are things I wouldn't want to have to do on my track saw but it is a pretty versatile tool.

Another thought. My worst injury, which I still have not totally healed from after more than 2 years came on a compound miter saw. I was tired and already injured on the other hand, so I have excuses, but your chopsaw can bite somebody too. You need to have a lawyer draft up some kind of waiver, if you haven't done it already. And you need to do reasonable things to minimize risk of injury.

Last thought, I use a dust deputy on a rigid shop vac on a little cart from plans Woodsmith put out as my only dust collection. Works pretty well. It also has a HEPA filter and an auto on switch. Or you could get a Fein vacuum (or a Festool if you really want to spend money). It won't really handle a planner or a jointer but it handles the 3100 and does OK with the CMS and RAS. And it works great with my DeWalt track saw (about 1/2 the price of the Festool with tracks).