New Engraver - Old Epilog or New Chinese?

[Bert Kemp]

OP has stated he's wants a co2 glass tube to start in a budget range under 10 ,.
Looking at what your looking to do and future an old Epilog is not the way to go. IMHO a new decent Chinese machine will server you well. You can get a Rabbit Laser in an 60 watt tube 600x400 mm table 9 in z axis with USA support and training . for well under 10 K the machine comes apart to fit thru doorways ect ect . Also Thunder Laser, Boss Laser and Automation Tech have similar machines in your price range, But Rabbit is proabaly the better.

[Keith Winter]

From the options you've presented a 12 year old Epilog or a G Weike machine there doesn't appear to be much different, one is not clearly better than the other for a new engraver. If you are only willing to consider those two options it's a dice roll one over the other. In my opinion having US support is key for a new laser engraver. Either one if they break you will be up the creek. G Weike will warranty for a year, but good luck getting tech support beyond the basics or someone to help you while you learn the machine. The old laser won't have any warranty or any tech support. So in either case you will be without a company to help you when you have all of those new user questions that arise.

For what you're wanting to do, you might listen to the others and consider what they are saying. Spending $20k on a new Trotec might be worth it. That money you spend on the G Weike won't have any residual value. If you want to "upgrade" a year later as you said, you'll be selling it for pennies on the dollar. Another thing is it sounds like you're space constrained. Chinese lasers are rather massive compared to US lasers. If space really is that big of concern then you might have to rethink your whole plan if you go Chinese and go with a Chinese with a smaller bed than you anticipated.

Thanks Glen.

You're right of course. I guess I'm just looking for insights re those two options. Again, I read the reply above yours and I have contacted the 'big' 3 and haven't found any in my price range, unless I want to go down to a lower wattage laser and a 12x18 work area, which simply won't be sufficient. Hence the two choices available.

I agree with your analogy and yes, I knew coming on here there would be both camps - the never buy Chinese at any cost and the never waste your money buying the Cadillac just to get features you don't really 'need', buy Chinese! - that's where I thought the used Epilog may be a compromise. It is a unit coning from Epilog itself, so they will have gone through it thoroughly.

That said, I am starting to sway away from the old model option and more towards the Chinese option. Weike does seem to get more positive reviews on here that many other Chinese alternatives.

[Bill George]

I have an older ULS machine that was rebuilt by the dealer and it had a warranty. Cost was a little less than 1/2 the cost of a new machine. No issues other than learning curve, the one question I did have that was handled. My GWeike machine had a few issues, but I am experanced enough to do my own repairs. It needed the tube replaced at only 4 months.
If your Eplilog dealer will help you get started and if the software you need will work on a XP computer I would consider it. Sure it's nice to have a new $30,000 Trotec machine, but I did what you will do, pay cash. I owe nothing as its paid for. Taking out a 2nd mortgage on your house to finance a start up is scary.

[Adam Less]

I have an older ULS machine that was rebuilt by the dealer and it had a warranty. Cost was a little less than 1/2 the cost of a new machine. No issues other than learning curve, the one question I did have that was handled. My GWeike machine had a few issues, but I am experanced enough to do my own repairs. It needed the tube replaced at only 4 months.
If your Eplilog dealer will help you get started and if the software you need will work on a XP computer I would consider it. Sure it's nice to have a new $30,000 Trotec machine, but I did what you will do, pay cash. I owe nothing as its paid for. Taking out a 2nd mortgage on your house to finance a start up is scary.

Here here.

Exactly my point. If after a few months it turns out I enjoy working on it. Maybe I've done a few little jobs and can see the opportunity to take on a few more, maybe I keep going, if the machine I have will work for me, or I get out of it (even if I lose $2k selling it, whatever entry level machine I buy will lose $2k) and then maybe, if it looks like I can make the revenue to support it, and I've cut my teeth for a few months gaining some experience, then I would consider financing a new machine and diving in more fully. Maybe I even keep my original machine as a hobby unit for my kids or as a back up.

I'm pretty tech savvy and handy with tools. I'm not scared off by a little skunkworks adventuring here and there, especially if it saves me a few thousand dollars, gets me in and is not something I'm relying on for my livelihood.

I tend to still be leaning towards the weike which will come in at about $5k less than the old Epilog. That's a wide buffer for fixing... Even if I need a new glass tube or even two... Still way less $$$.

[Clark Pace]

I figure I must be the only one who thinks you can run a business on a Chinese Laser as I do, and have for a few years. I must stress I have owned two ULS machines in my life and so I'm aware of how good a machine they are, but 25k can be a little steep for some people. So I would say a chinese machine would be fine to start out. But if you have any worries get a chinese machine supported by a USA company. There are few that have been recommended here.

The plus is you may owe less or even perhaps own a machine out-right and not have any debt.

One other option that would be to lease a US machine if you want to get your feet wet, have support, and see if laser engraving is really for you.

Good Luck

[Scott Marquez]

Buying a $20,00-$30,000 machine is a heck of a bite for someone that is just getting into the industry. There are other expenses beside just the machine, air scrubber, design software, and a computer to name a few.
If you start with a Chinese machine your engraving might be slower but it may not be important since you won't be doing long production runs, if you happen to land a huge job you can always sub out the laser time, using the art that you provide. At this point you are so new that you really don't know what you want, a year down the road you will know what jobs make you money and what machine you will "need" to do the job most efficiently.
I have no regrets with the machine that I purchased for the work I need it to do.
Scott

[Robert Tepper]

You are getting great advice and opinions from many knowledgeable people.

You can get a Trotec Rayjet for 19K and if you mention you are a member of SMC, they will knock off an additional 2K.

My Rayjet 300 has a 17 x 29" table with 80 watts of power. It is an entry level machine, does not have Job Pro software. Mine has been running for almost 4 years and I can honestly say that it has paid for itself 8 times over.

Whatever you purchase, the best of luck to you in your new adventure. I would not purchase a 12 year old machine because technology has changed and I don't know how much longer you will be able to get parts or support for it.

Robert

[Scott Shepherd]

I tend to still be leaning towards the weike which will come in at about $5k less than the old Epilog. That's a wide buffer for fixing... Even if I need a new glass tube or even two... Still way less $$$.

You seem to be stuck on 2 options, a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike. There are MANY other options that you SHOULD be considering.

Clark, you aren't the only person that thinks you can run a business from a Chinese laser. It's all relative to the work you do. Can you do it? With the right work, certainly. I've told the story for years, but I'll repeat the heart of the story, a Chinese machine will not do what we need it to do for 2 of our largest customers. It simply won't. The limitations of the Chinese machine fit right into the specifications of our customers items. If you had these customers, then you wouldn't be able to do their work with the Chinese machines. That's not an opinion, that's a fact and has been supported by a number of tries by us to have them replicated on Chinese equipment over the years.

Does that mean it won't work for you? Absolutely not. However, it's something that is overlooked when people say "I'd never spend $25,000 when I could spend $5,000 and do the same thing". That's just not an accurate statement. I'm not suggesting you feel that way, but it is repeated by some, often. It might fit your work all day, but that doesn't mean it fits everyone's work.

If we replaced our brand name lasers with Chinese lasers, we would have lost over $100,000 in revenue, easily.

There are many options out there for less than $10,000. If I had to chose between a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike, I think I'd keep looking until I found a better fit. I've seen like new machines with less than 100 hours on them sell for less than $10,000 many times.

[Jerome Stanek]

You seem to be stuck on 2 options, a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike. There are MANY other options that you SHOULD be considering.

Clark, you aren't the only person that thinks you can run a business from a Chinese laser. It's all relative to the work you do. Can you do it? With the right work, certainly. I've told the story for years, but I'll repeat the heart of the story, a Chinese machine will not do what we need it to do for 2 of our largest customers. It simply won't. The limitations of the Chinese machine fit right into the specifications of our customers items. If you had these customers, then you wouldn't be able to do their work with the Chinese machines. That's not an opinion, that's a fact and has been supported by a number of tries by us to have them replicated on Chinese equipment over the years.

Does that mean it won't work for you? Absolutely not. However, it's something that is overlooked when people say "I'd never spend $25,000 when I could spend $5,000 and do the same thing". That's just not an accurate statement. I'm not suggesting you feel that way, but it is repeated by some, often. It might fit your work all day, but that doesn't mean it fits everyone's work.

If we replaced our brand name lasers with Chinese lasers, we would have lost over $100,000 in revenue, easily.

There are many options out there for less than $10,000. If I had to chose between a 12 year old Epilog and a new Weike, I think I'd keep looking until I found a better fit. I've seen like new machines with less than 100 hours on them sell for less than $10,000 many times.

My 2 major customers only need cutting so I opted for a Chinese laser over a Trotec. I went to a show and had each cut a sample of my material and the Chinese did the job as good as any other one.

[Bill Cunningham]

Been running my Epilog 24TT since 2004. Replaced 1 Tube, 1 Mirror, 1 ribbon cable and a X-motor. All the rest including the 2" lens is original. I do have a spare lens, x-motor, on hand just in case.. The machine has worked well, and I have no idea how many hours are on, it but it's lots. If the TT is cheap enough, Epilog still supports them, as far as parts. However they are a 32 bit driver. I just upgraded my 10 year old computer with a new i7 running Win7Pro (horrible compared to XP) and had to get the 32 bit op system to satisfy the TT driver. I don't know how much longer I will stay in business (I'm 69 now) so I will cross the bridge on a new machine if and when this one goes down, and can't be fixed.. Like I said, if it's cheap enough, it will get you in the door with a reliable machine that can be replaced at a later date if business warrants it. Also, I'm not sure what you intend to do with it, but I can probably count (without taking off my socks) the number of jobs I had to turn down because the table wasn't big enough. On the left side of the TT you can cut a 5.5" hole, fit it with a door to seal the hole and do longer items like baseball bats and paddles... It's old, but don't sell it short..

[Scott Shepherd]

My 2 major customers only need cutting so I opted for a Chinese laser over a Trotec. I went to a show and had each cut a sample of my material and the Chinese did the job as good as any other one.

That's exactly my point! What works for you, doesn't work for me, what works for me, doesn't work for you, and that's all based on what your product/customer requirements are, and none of us know that information in this case, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong.

If all I did was cut, I'd own multiple Chinese machines. In fact, we have one customer's products that are only cutting and we've repeatedly talked about moving it over to Chinese machines, however, we're out of space at this location, so it's no need to pursue it.

[Clark Pace]

That's exactly my point! What works for you, doesn't work for me, what works for me, doesn't work for you, and that's all based on what your product/customer requirements are, and none of us know that information in this case, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong.

If all I did was cut, I'd own multiple Chinese machines. In fact, we have one customer's products that are only cutting and we've repeatedly talked about moving it over to Chinese machines, however, we're out of space at this location, so it's no need to pursue it.

I understand the limitations of Chinese lasers. Believe me. That is not my point. My point is when someone here says you can't run a business on a USA alternative laser it is not correct. Making a blatant statement like that is silly. Or course there are projects that can't be done on certain laser, but can be done on others.

That is all I am saying.

[Scott Shepherd]

I understand the limitations of Chinese lasers. Believe me. That is not my point. My point is when someone here says you can't run a business on a USA alternative laser it is not correct. Making a blatant statement like that is silly. Or course there are projects that can't be done on certain laser, but can be done on others.

That is all I am saying.

I agree with you 100%! Several times over the years we have bought Chinese equipment, used it to enter a market, then used the money made from it to upgrade to nicer machines down the road. Most everything we have bought has paid for itself in months.

[Rich Harman]

When I first got my laser I put a post up here showing the results of engraving the Aztec calendar - the same one that Epilog sends out as samples. It is clear to me that a Chinese machine can match the quality of a western machine. However, out-of-the-box, I'd bet that a western machine will be better. It's the tweaking, the attention to detail that is lacking at the Chinese factories that makes the difference.

I never aspired to be an "engraver", I was looking to cut. The western machines have very little advantage over Chinese when it comes to cutting. But if I were to pursue engraving I'd be looking at a Trotec.

If you are mechanically inclined, don't mind tweaking things, then you shouldn't have much problem with a Chinese machine.

Here are the pictures. The Epilog one is done on red alder, mine was on MDF.

AztecCloseup.jpg

AztecCalendar-008-L.jpg

[Adam Less]

I agree with you 100%! Several times over the years we have bought Chinese equipment, used it to enter a market, then used the money made from it to upgrade to nicer machines down the road. Most everything we have bought has paid for itself in months.

This was exactly my point and really where I was going. I hear others say "hey, just sucks it up, get a more expensive, newer machine and it will pay for itself with no headache.". I get that but I don't have the cash available to buy a machine like that. I also don't plan on having any volume jobs or a large number of jobs.

I'd like to start, tinkering a bit, take on a few little jobs through my own network of clients and organizations with which I work, and feel things out.

If after a few months to a year this little side business seems like a great fit (in other words, I enjoy it, it fits my skills and I can see real opportunities to generate business) then yes, of course, I put my little Chinese laser over to the side, use it as a back up or hobby machine and then maybe bite the bullet and buy a more expensive, newer Trotec or Epilog, or maybe even, if the revenue looks potentially positive enough, I even finance a new one.

Again, I already have a successful consultancy which I'll continue. I'm not life or death reliant on the jobs I'll get in. If I have to pass on a job or two, fine. Over time I'll figure out what work is out there, what jobs I WANT to take on, and I'll respond by upgrading as I need to.

Having read everything here, my sense is the used Epilog tt would work fine though be older tech and maybe not quite up to snuff. I worry about suddenly being hit with an expensive part to replace. And I hate having close to $10k tied up in the machine, still needing to pay money for other stuff, supplies, etc.

While I don't doubt a Weike machine will come with some headaches, it doesn't sound like their duds. I've read more than a few reviews from people who are happy with them and are able to function with small businesses using them. For less than half the cost, it sounds more like the risk I'm willing to take.

Thanks for all the input.