Electric 4-way switch - I'm stumped

[Mike Berrevoets]

I'm in the middle of a remodel job on our house. (Yes, I pulled permits) The main floor is nearly gutted and I took out the bulkhead in the old kitchen. in that bulkhead was a 14/2 wire that is hanging below the joists. I need to pull that wire, run it through the joists and reconnect it so we can drywall. The wire goes to the second floor hallway and I believe it goes to the switch for the hall light. I pulled the switch out and the wire in question has the white connected and the ground connected but the black wire is not connected to anything. Is this some kind of strange thing with a 4 way switch? I can't find where that cable terminates on the other end yet. It goes into the ceiling of the one room I haven't demolished and I'd rather not keep chasing this thing.

House was was built in 1975.

I'm stumped. Why would the black not be connected to anything?

[Lee Schierer]

A four way switch would have three or four wires plus a ground connected to it, if properly wired, depending on where it sits in the circuit. Your switch appears to be wired so the ground is being used for the neutral or hot which is dangerous. Get a voltage detector to see which wire is hot. You can also connect a circuit tracer that will help trace the circuit. When all else fails, hire an electrician (no offense intended) since you don't appear to know a lot about wiring.Understanding4-way-switch.jpg

[Mike Berrevoets]

A little clarification.

In the box with the mystery cable: (I'm going off memory from last night)
-One 14/2 with white and black connected to the travelers on the switch.
-One 14/3 with red and black connected to the other two terminals on the switch.
-One 14/2 (mystery cable) with the white connected to the white of the 14/3. Black not connected to anything.
-All grounds are wired together and pigtailed to the switch.

Everything functions as expected with the switches doing what they are supposed to do.

Lee - no offense taking at advice to call an electrician. I've done quite a bit of my own wiring that has been properly inspected on both this house and the last. I'm decent at running my own stuff, researching the codes and asking the inspector questions ahead of time so I get what they require. But, I admit that when I run into something unusual I can get stumped like I am now. There was some other unexpected stuff in this house. Strange, illogical cable routing, multibranch wire circuits, etc that caused some head scratching for me.

At this point im just looking for some ideas on what might be going on with this thing. Then I can do some more demo to expose wires and make it right. Half the house is torn up anyways. If I can't figure it out ill call in a pro.

[Gary Yoder]

I'm curious what is going one as well. Two scenarios come to my mind, #1 someone ran a wire somewhere for a "future" need (but why would you connect any wires at that point?), or #2 did somone pull power from one leg of a 220 circuit and need to connect a white somewhere? Sounds like wiring my dad would do! I guess you could unhook the white and see what stops working??

[Lee Schierer]

Can you post some photos of what you are seeing?? If that switch with only the ground and white connected actually controls something you have a problem. When part of my house was wired, instead of buying three conductor wire for a three way circuit, they used the ground wire as the runner. It might be that someone did a similar thing in your situation. In no case should the ground lead ever be used for a current carrying member of a circuit.

[Tom M King]

Sometimes the switch leg, and the leg to the light are in the same box. It's easiest, same as 3-way, when those come in opposite ends like the attachment in post #2. Draw a diagram to help figure it out. Google should find pictures of all variations.

[Jim Koepke]

To my way of thinking the easiest answer to this is the person who did the wiring in the past didn't know what they were doing and the OP may have a wiring mess on their hands.

Sometimes, to get it done right, it is easier to take it all out and start over.

jtk

[David L Morse]

My first guess would be that someone ran out of 14/3 and both of those 14/2 cables end up at one of the three way switches with black wire unconnected in that box too. Open both of the three ways and take a peek.

[paul cottingham]

When part of my house was wired, instead of buying three conductor wire for a three way circuit, they used the ground wire as the runner.

Seriously? Holy cow.

in our basement, we had two circuits joined together in a couple of ceiling boxes stacked together (on top of one another, i crap you not) and wired together, sharing neutrals and (gulp) hots. When we disconnected all the wires and reconnected them correctly, the stairway light stopped working. When we fixed that, the shop lights stopped working, and nothing we tried could make it work (one of the people who tried was an electrician.) My FIL plays rugby with a fellow who troubleshoots electrical for the Navy, and it took him 2 hours to figure it out.

Sometimes you just have to bring in the big boys.

[David L Morse]

My second guess is that during a previous remodel the 4way was originally a single pole. The 14/2 with both wires connected was a feed and the other 14/2 went to the load. The feed was difficult to replace with 14/3 so it was repurposed as travelers with the third wire taking a different route through the load to try to make as much use as possible out of already installed cable.

[Mike Berrevoets]

I'll try to get some pictures tomorrow when I can turn off the breaker and pull all 3 switches and the light fixture.

[John K Jordan]

Don't trust anything you don't do or check yourself! Even if done by a "professional" electrician. (Sorry, electricians) I have too many examples to even list.

When we moved into this house and the light wiring was all messed up in one room. One 4-gang box with three 3-way switches connected to other 3 and 4-way switches and two of them not working properly.

I mapped what was hot on each switch when flipped each way then I turned off the power, disconnected wires as needed and mapped EVERY wire with a continuity tester. Made a big truth table and figured out where the hungover electrician went wrong back in '88. I made a complete wiring diagram. Everything is right now. Also had to figure out another mystery switch that did nothing elsewhere in the house.

When the electricians finished wiring my sister's new house there was one short end of romex hanging out of a hole high on a wall. It was hot. My other sister had two hot wires from two separate breakers feeding the same 3-way lighting circuit. Cut the breaker and the circuit was still hot! I have even more horror stories, residential and industrial.

The bottom line: I would absolutely without a doubt unfailingly and precisely determine EXACTLY where each wire came from and went before I did anything. If your case was mine I would make a complete wiring diagram of what is there then analyze it to see if it makes sense.

JKJ

[Clint Baxter]

My first guess would be that someone ran out of 14/3 and both of those 14/2 cables end up at one of the three way switches with black wire unconnected in that box too. Open both of the three ways and take a peek.

This would be my first guess as well. Let us know if you find a box with a three way switch that has three 14/2 coming into it with a black wire unconnected. Hopefully that unused black wire has the ends capped off with wire nuts or tape.

Eager to see the rest of the story.

Clint

[Ole Anderson]

I had a similar problem with a 4 way switch and finally gave up and called in sparky. Another time I was stumped and called him in, he made some suggestions, at no charge. I finally traced that one to a neutral wire that had pulled out of a wire nut up in the attic (after tearing up drywall thinking we had punched a nail into a neutral while installing siding).

[Peter Stahl]

I redid some wiring in my daughters house and some of the stuff they did was strange. You never know what you'll find in a house new or old.