Electric 4-way switch - I'm stumped

[Mike Berrevoets]

I've got pictures now and I'm more confused then ever....

First picture of the older 4 way switch shows the mystery black wire heading off to the right. 14/2 from top attached to the travelers. 14/3 from the top with black and red attached to the commons and white going to the white of the mystery cable.
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Second switch pic is top of the stairs. A 3 way switch. No mystery cable in the box.
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Third pic is the light fixture. Nothing unusual in this box.
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Fourth picture is the last switch. This is bottom of the stairs. The switch that controls the light is the middle of the three switches. The other two switches control other lights on the circuit. No mystery cable in this box.
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I guess i was expecting to see the mystery cable somewhere in one of the other boxes with the black just hanging in space. Thinking they used the white to complete the neutral.

I pulled the white wire off in the first box and now the light doesn't work so it is needed. It is heading towards another box with three switches in it but those are on a different circuit. Or, the wire is heading for the main panel but it is definately on the same circuit because it goes dead when I turn off the breaker. So it's not tied into a different circuit.

im stumped. I need to relocate this wire. I can cut in the wall, pull the wire, run it through the joists and reconnect the way it was for the last 40 years. But, it bothers me that I can't figure out what is going on.....

[Jim Koepke]

Do you have a volt meter?

Have you checked this wire for voltage or continuity to ground?

jtk

[Peter Stahl]

I'm not a electrician but here is my 2 cents.

First picture, 4-Way switch: The Black & White wires at the top of the 4-Way switch are attached to the travelers from the middle 3-Way switch in the last picture. The Red & Black are the travelers going to the other 3-Way. The bottom cables (14/3 or is it 12/3) is also tied to a neutral that was brought into this box from another source that’s why the black isn’t being used. There has to be a outlet or junction box somewhere with the white tied into and the black wire just hanging out.

Second picture, 3-Way switch: Top 2 wires on the 3-Way switch are the Travelers. The bottom black wire on the black screw is the hot wire going to the light. The black wire is a 14/2 (or 12/2) going to the light and the white from the 4-Way box that has the black in limbo are tired together for the neutral the light needs.

Third picture: Black & white wires are coming from the second picture 3-Way switch.

The Last picture with the 3 way switch in the middle has a red wire coming from a wire nut that ties the other switches and the main hot that feeds all three switches. The Black & White wires at the top of the 3-Way are the travelers going to the 4-Way switch.

If it were my house I would turn off the power then take the wire nut off the group of red wires and the one black that are twisted together and separate them. Next I would turn the power on and see if the Black is the main hot. If it is then there should not be any power at the other 2 switches. Looks like it was wired by a home owner not a licensed electrician.

[Peter Stahl]

On 3-Way switches the 2 gold color are usually the travelers and the Black screw is the hot (either the feed or going to the light or fan). 4-Way switches are the go between and all 4 screws are travelers and the 2 brass screws attach the travelers from one 3-Way and the other 2 screws attach the other 3-Way. See Lee's picture in his reply. You would normally run the neutral from the first 3-Way to the 4-Way then to the last 3-Way switch then to the light but it looks like they did something a little unorthodox. In the last picture the 3rd switch to the right which is a 3-Way, it looks like they did way you should wire it.

After all of this to simply answer your question the White was used just for the Neutral and they also used the ground. Black wire shouldn't be hot as the hot was brought in at the box with the 3 switches. Switches only disconnect the hot wire so a could have gone directly to the light/fan. Grounds need to be connected to all switches, lights and fans. There are a lot of YouTube videos on wiring switches.

[David L Morse]

I think Peter's description of the circuit connections is correct.

I do have a comment on his reply:

... Black wire shouldn't be hot as the hot was brought in at the box with the 3 switches. ...

I agree that the Black wire SHOULDN'T be hot but until you know the terminus of the cable you can't be sure that it won't be sometime. Even if you check it with a meter you don't know if it's connected to a switch that just happens to be off.

As Peter pointed out that cable is probably going to yet another box to pick up a neutral connection. You said:

... It is heading towards another box with three switches in it but those are on a different circuit. Or, the wire is heading for the main panel but it is definately on the same circuit because it goes dead when I turn off the breaker. So it's not tied into a different circuit. ...

Neutrals are not associated with any particular breaker. They are usually bundled in a cable with a hot wire but for a circuit to work any old neutral will do. They all connect to the same bus bar at the panel. If it looks like it's going to a particular box then by all means open that box and look. Of course you might not find a dangling Black there; it could be connected to something. You might have to open the neutral bundle in that box and see if your light goes out.

[Jim Koepke]

There has to be a outlet or junction box somewhere with the white tied into and the black wire just hanging out.

The bad part of this is it may be hidden inside of a wall or ceiling somewhere. I am not an electrician, but I am not sure if code allows this.

jtk

[David L Morse]

The bad part of this is it may be hidden inside of a wall or ceiling somewhere. I am not an electrician, but I am not sure if code allows this.

jtk

The extra wire isn't a problem. It's having one neutral carry the current for more than one circuit. You could exceed the ampacity of the common neutral wire.

Of course a junction box can never be hidden.

[Tom M King]

Shared neutrals are a problem with arc-fault breakers too.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Ok. Got my immediate problem solved at least.

The wire I had to relocate through the joists actually went to a junction box above the switch in question where it connected to another 14/2 that I think went down into the box with the odd wiring. Found this by disconnecting some things and tugging on cables. Pulled that wire out ran a new wire and made the junction in a junction box. Everything is up in the joists so it can be drywalled.

Still not entirely sure what is going on with the mystery black wire but I put a wire nut on it and closed everything back up for the time being. It all works correctly and has been for 40 years so a little while longer should be ok. I'll find an electrician to trouble shoot it when I have a chance. The parts of the house I've demoed have no hidden junctions so I'm not covering anything up that isn't too code. Maybe I'll ask the inspector at the rough in inspection. I'm guessing they have seen some odd things like this.

interesting find.... The last picture with the three switches has the original inspection sticker in it. Passed.

[Tony Zona]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

[Peter Stahl]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

I didn't see anyone here tell him how to rewire it, we gave our opinion what we thought was going on. He also mentioned he was doing legal local inspections. I doubt a licensed electrician tell him what he needs to do.

[Mike Berrevoets]

Am I the only one who thinks troubleshooting puzzling and potentially dangerous wiring from a million miles away is extremely risky for both the forum poster and the homeowner?

Also, would any professional electrician who would jump into this thread be taking on a huge liability?

Like Peter said, I was asking for opinions on what might be going on to give me some ideas of what to look for. Not necessarily what to do to fix the issue. I'm still responsible for making the changes as the permit is under my name and it is my house. Besides, I doubt the inspector will accept the excuse of "some random guys on the Internet told me to do it this way"

I appreciate the help given so far. I will fully disclose what work I have done to the inspector because it's my house and I want it to be right for the safety of my family. Granted, maybe some people wouldn't do that and then I could see your concern.

[Julie Moriarty]

As someone who learned the trade installing conduit systems (even in residential), this is an excellent example why those of us who do electrical installations with conduit think romex is a joke. Yet the majority of residences in the US are wired with what is essentially extension cords. I don't care what the NEC says, romex is a joke.

Had this installation been done in conduit, there would have been color-coded wires that would have been easily identified. With conduit, you don't see white wires used as current-carrying conductors. You don't see a white and a black and a red terminated together. And a whole bunch of other things that I, and pretty much every electrician I've ever worked with, consider flat out wrong and potentially dangerous.

Mike, I have said before here that a woodworker's forum is not the place to ask for electrical help. But even if you go to Mike Holt's website and get some good advice from the electricians who populate the forum, you still may not understand the little inner workings of how electricity does what it does and what actually works and what doesn't. Even inspectors don't take the time to check to make sure everything is done right, and some don't even know what to look for.

I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to give you and your family some peace of mind.

[Peter Stahl]

As someone who learned the trade installing conduit systems (even in residential), this is an excellent example why those of us who do electrical installations with conduit think romex is a joke. Yet the majority of residences in the US are wired with what is essentially extension cords. I don't care what the NEC says, romex is a joke.

Had this installation been done in conduit, there would have been color-coded wires that would have been easily identified. With conduit, you don't see white wires used as current-carrying conductors. You don't see a white and a black and a red terminated together. And a whole bunch of other things that I, and pretty much every electrician I've ever worked with, consider flat out wrong and potentially dangerous.

Mike, I have said before here that a woodworker's forum is not the place to ask for electrical help. But even if you go to Mike Holt's website and get some good advice from the electricians who populate the forum, you still may not understand the little inner workings of how electricity does what it does and what actually works and what doesn't. Even inspectors don't take the time to check to make sure everything is done right, and some don't even know what to look for.

I suggest you hire a qualified electrician to give you and your family some peace of mind.

Not trying to start a fight or debate but I don't ever see conduit being used in residential. I am surprised in most areas the home owner is allowed to do their own with a inspection & permits of course. I can do my own electric but not my plumbing work, go figure. If who ever did this mess that Mike has on his hands would have used the right wire (14/3 or 12/3 don't know the circuit amperage) then he wouldn't have a mystery wire. I have at least five of these 3 gang boxes like Mike but the electrician that did my house used the right cables and I think all of them the power comes into these boxes then goes out to lights and switches. I think I pulled most of these covers off to put a dimmer switch in. I don't have a problem with romex (poor mans extension cord. (sorry Julie I couldn't resist)) but I do with the push in holes in the back of receptacles & switches. I also prefer to use metal boxes than the plastic ones. Any doubt, call a professional is also great advise.

[Julie Moriarty]

The most common problem with romex systems, Peter, comes with conductor identification. With conduit, the electrician has a wide array of different colored wires to use to make that identification clear. I've been on jobs where we used pink and purple wires. With systems that require isolated neutrals, we will use a white wire with colored stripe. The whole idea is to avoid crossing wires. It is possible for a system to appear to work but electrically, it can be a mess.

I haven't done service work on many romex-wired houses but when I have, I never see any attempt to identify the conductors. If you have to use a white wire for a switch leg, mark each end with tape or a wire tag. It takes more time initially, but it's worth it, IMHO. I just bought a house in Florida and it's all romex. Outside of what I think of romex, I'd rate the installation about a 4 out of 10. It's obvious the intent was get it done as fast as possible, get your money and leave. And that's part of why romex came into being - it's cheap and easy to install. But after the installation, it's costly to troubleshoot or modify, if you do it right.

You could say I am spoiled only installing and working on conduit systems. It is far superior to romex, even if it's plastic conduit. Yet I know the vast majority of homes are wired with romex and if the homeowner never touches the wiring, chances are there will never be a problem. But how often do really you see that?

On another note, the problem with trying to trace out a problem online is anyone trying to help has to rely on a person who can't figure it out on their own and who you have to ask to do certain tests the questioner may not be qualified to do. Then you have to hope the test was done correctly and that the results of the test are properly conveyed. Someone who wants to run a circuit from their panel to their workshop is an easy thing to explain online. Someone who is tracing out a problem is a whole 'nother animal.