Kiyotada Chisel Pics 1/5 Oire & Mukomachi Chisel Sets

[Stanley Covington]

Brian:

My favorite finish stone for chisels is a Honyama, medium soft. A bit green instead of light brown. I have another Honyama stone, yellowish brown, and a bit softer, that I use for planes. I have a Karasuyama for sharpening my razor. Harder, but it really likes my tamahagane razor after a dressing with a tsushima nagura.

I don't pretend to know a lot about natural stones as they can be frightfully expensive to experiment with. When I first started buying natural stones, I made some expensive mistakes. In one case, I was outright duped by a tool store owner in Sendai. After that, I took a wise man's advice and bought a lot of koppa, small, irregular shaped stones from the various mines at cheap prices, and tried them until I found the mine that produced stones with the texture and hardness that work best for my tools and sharpening style, and that achieved the best finish, and then bought the larger stones to match. This has worked very well for me.

Stan

Here are some pictures of my stones, as well as the sort of koppa (or scraps) I used to learn which stone work best for me and my tools.

The first pic from left is of two koppa.

The next three are of my best stone, a Honyama of unusual beauty that creates a wonderful, cloudy finish on good hard steel, and a flat grey finish on soft steel. A bit on the soft side, it loves my plane blades and vice versa. It is wider than standard stones, but shorter and a tad thinner. This makes it perfect for my purposes, and the way I sharpen plane blades. Also, a stone of this quality and width, if full length and perfect, would cost many thousands of dollars. I got this one at a reasonable price (a long time ago). I am careful of when and how I use this stone to prolong its life. I did not attach it to a base, but keep it in a dedicated plastic container and wrapped in bubble wrap when not in use. It has not spit up any sand yet.

The next three pics are of the natural finishing stone I use the most. It too is from Honyama. It is not as fine as the stone to the left, but it is still very good. It is harder and more durable, and chisels are less likely to gouge its surface. I Use it for planes, chisels, kiridashi, and most everything. I need a standard sized stone like this at hand all the time, and in 15 years or so, will wear one out entirely. I have had this one for about 5 years, and paid around $500 for it. That was a reasonable price, but I could have probably procured it for less if I had had the time to shop around and travel to Kyoto.

Both stones have their perimeter and undersides painted with an artificial urethane called Cashew made from the oil of the cashew tree. Urushi (natural lacquer) is the traditional coating, but my wife breaks out in hives if she is anywhere near urushi, so Cashew is the next best thing. One guy in a book on stones I have glued a layer of patterned washi paper to the perimeter of his stones. The effect was nice, but a bit too gay for my taste.

The purpose of the paint, for those that don't know, is to keep water from penetrating the sides of the stone causing the layers of sedimentary material that form natural stones to separate. I have not experienced that so far (knock on forehead). Perhaps it is because of the paint. In any case, natural stones stones like these are quite fragile and must be treated with care.

The base of the large stone is made from a cutoff of Ipe deck material from one of my jobsites. Two pieces laminated one on top of the other actually. I have tried a number of materials for stone bases, and Ipe has been the best so far by a country mile. I highly recommend it.

Most of you will have never used stones like these, and would have a difficult time even finding them if you developed the itch to have your own. Please understand that you don't need stones like these to sharpen your tools to maximum sharpness. They are undoubtedly a waste of time and money. But they do make the tools beautiful, and perhaps make them cut a little longer, and are so very very pleasant to use.

Stan

Koppa79sm.jpgHonyamaPlane80sm.jpgHonyamaPlane EdgeCU82sm.jpgHonyamaPlaneCU81sm.jpgHonyamaLargeFront83sm.jpgHonyamaLargeBEV84sm.jpgHonyamaLargeFaceCU86sm.jpg

[Jim Koepke]

Probably more information than you wanted, but the price was right.

I found it an enjoyable read. Thanks for sharing.

Though I may never own a Japanese chisel, it is interesting to learn about something different than what I am using.

jtk

[David Wong]

Stanley,
Really beautiful finish stones. Amazing consistency and purity on your honyama. Thanks for taking the time to photo and post them. I had a not-so-expensive natural stone separate on the sedimentary layers on me. It was a thick (grade 30) soft stone, and I was careless not using it with a base. I repaired it with cashew lacquer and paper, and now have it attached to a wooden base. Documented here.

david

[Joey Arispe]

Unbelievably beautiful chisels Stanley. I'd be very proud to have such gems.

I want to buy my first set of Japanese chisels soon. I'm want a set of butt chisels that will last my entire life.

I'm thinking of the Koyamaichi white steel oire-nomi chisels that toolsfromjapan.com has for sale. Would you recommend that brand for a beginner who wants to take these chisels with him to all stages of his journey?

Thanks


http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1339

[Stanley Covington]

Unbelievably beautiful chisels Stanley. I'd be very proud to have such gems.

I want to buy my first set of Japanese chisels soon. I'm want a set of butt chisels that will last my entire life.

I'm thinking of the Koyamaichi white steel oire-nomi chisels that toolsfromjapan.com has for sale. Would you recommend that brand for a beginner who wants to take these chisels with him to all stages of his journey?

Thanks


http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...oducts_id=1339

Joey:

I have never used Koyamaichi chisels, and so cannot speak to their quality, but several other people I respect have praised them. They are advertised as being made from White Paper steel, which is indicative of a blacksmith with an above-average level of skill paying above-average attention to QC. They are clearly Kansai style chisels probably from Miki, and so are probably a bit softer than I like. What can I say... I am a chisel snob.

But the price is very good, and the Yen exchange rate is still in your favor, so they might make a decent choice. I have no doubt that, with care, they will be very useful for your entire life, however long that may be.

On a practical note, the nice thing about chisels is that you can always use another set. I have my Kiyotada chisels, but I also have the set of "beaters" by Kiyohisa here in Japan with me, and another set of beaters (Ouchi or Iyoroi, I don't remember which) in the US which I bought in Sendai before I really new much about chisels. And I have had other sets I ended up giving away to my sons and friends. If you find a set you like more later, well then price of the Koyamaichi set is not so high that you will regret it.

I hope this helps.

Stan

[Stanley Covington]

Stanley,
Really beautiful finish stones. Amazing consistency and purity on your honyama. Thanks for taking the time to photo and post them. I had a not-so-expensive natural stone separate on the sedimentary layers on me. It was a thick (grade 30) soft stone, and I was careless not using it with a base. I repaired it with cashew lacquer and paper, and now have it attached to a wooden base. Documented here.

david

David:

Thanks for pointing out your post. Very interesting story. Perhaps I can fill in some pieces of the puzzle for the other readers.

Natural stones can and will fall apart. Don't leave them soaking in a bucket of water. Coat the sides.

As David's post illuminates, they can often be repaired, but don't count on it.

Cashew is not artificial urushi, although it is sold as such. It is a natural urethane made from the sap of the cashew tree, mostly sourced in Thailand. It does not need high temperatures or high humidity to cure, unlike urushi lacquer. I have used it for a long time for hobby projects, but also in construction projects as a finish material in hotel projects were the designer wanted an urushi-like appearance, but higher strength and abrasion resistance was indicated.

I don't know if kaki shibu will make the paper tougher than the Cashew will all by itself, but it will change the color. Of course, the Cashew will immediately change the color itself, so I think the kakishibu is just a traditional thing. Using washi paper to reinforce the sides makes perfect sense, washi being so strong.

A base is a good thing, but I don't see how one would prevent delamination of the stone.

Two cents.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

Stan,

Thanks for posting up those photos! Wow, that's a nice stone...approaches the egg color that is much sought after. That stone is a Honyama, so from Nakayama? It nearly looks like a synthetic, so quite top notch.

Anyone who has not tried natural stones, yes it's an expensive process, but one of the most rewarding. I'm very happy using natural stones, it's made a not so enjoyable process into a very enjoyable one.

My first stone is still one of my favorites, it's a Shinden suita of an odd shape/size and it's gorgeous to me because it works beautifully. David Weaver helped me to choose it from a AframesTokyo. I think that is a good place to start, along with the Koppa stones because until you know what you really enjoy you could spend quite a bit on things that you won't really want to use as you progress.

[Jeffrey Martel]

Jeff:

You won't find Kiyotada chisels (by Shimamura san) in the stores anymore. They pop up on auctions now and then. They were expensive when Shimamura san made mine, but since his death, the prices have gone insane.

Stan

Any recommendations on good chisels that would be available on a walk-in basis to some various stores (small or large stores)? Say somewhere in the 11,500 yen range per chisel or under ($100 USD right now). I know I can just buy some from Stu, but I'd like to see them in person first if possible.

[David Wong]

Stan,

Thanks for the further explanation. I was not sure about the humidity and temperature requirements for curing the cashew urethane. The stone I showed was never soaked, as far as I know. I would always handle it by grasping the stone by its side. The delamination opened up when lifting it. I was certainly lucky the stone did not fly apart completely. I felt the stress of lifting the stone while not properly supporting its weight, contributed to the split. In any case, as you said, a base is a good thing.

David

[Joey Arispe]

I have no doubt that, with care, they will be very useful for your entire life, however long that may be.

On a practical note, the nice thing about chisels is that you can always use another set. I have my Kiyotada chisels, but I also have the set of "beaters" by Kiyohisa here in Japan with me, and another set of beaters (Ouchi or Iyoroi, I don't remember which) in the US which I bought in Sendai before I really new much about chisels. And I have had other sets I ended up giving away to my sons and friends. If you find a set you like more later, well then price of the Koyamaichi set is not so high that you will regret it.

Stan

Thank you Stan! I really appreciate your insight. Hope I live long enough to hold some nice chisels in my own hands...hah

I plan on buying a set of old used Japanese chisels on Ebay, too. I plan on restoring them. I figure I could use some of the ones I don't like as my beater chisels and still probably find some great chisels.

[Allan Speers]

You know, "Japanese tool porn" is like watching people shag with their clothes on.


The very best stuff is often so unassuming..... but therein lies the beauty.
The absolute pinnacle of "function over form," or something like that. (Damascus steel notwithstanding.)

[Brian Holcombe]

I used to really like mokume and all of that type of stuff (still do with hammers, though I do not own any mokume gennou), but eventually found the highest appreciation for things like sen scraped ura, black oxide finished ura, gumi handles, filed hoops and white steel.

The sex appeal is still plenty there, but refined. I did not get (understand) gumi handles for the longest time, but then I acquired a few chisels with them and the material was very clear, pale yellow and with pith in the center. It was clean like plastic but nice to handle. Using it is just great, it absorbs hammer blows nicely with just enough spring to it.

[Stanley Covington]

I used to really like mokume and all of that type of stuff (still do with hammers, though I do not own any mokume gennou), but eventually found the highest appreciation for things like sen scraped ura, black oxide finished ura, gumi handles, filed hoops and white steel.

The sex appeal is still plenty there, but refined. I did not get (understand) gumi handles for the longest time, but then I acquired a few chisels with them and the material was very clear, pale yellow and with pith in the center. It was clean like plastic but nice to handle. Using it is just great, it absorbs hammer blows nicely with just enough spring to it.

Never tried gumi handles, the color seems strange....

My chisel fetish is at the point where I find myself humming like Homer Simpson when I see subtly blended, carefully aligned deft filework on a chisel's neck, shoulder, and back (Ichihiro), or sink a newly sharpened tataki nomi into a timber, and pull it out and see the bevel smiling back at me, ready for more cutting (Kiyotada) ....

Plane blades get more credit, and are often unjustifiably more expensive based on manhours expended and skill requirements, but the fact is that chisels are so much more difficult and time consuming for a blacksmith to make well; Each a small, precise sculpture that must endure abuse and extreme forces.

Stan

[Brian Holcombe]

I wasn't over the moon about them until receiving a set of Konobu with gumi handles. Wherever he sources his handles from must be absolutely top quality, both the shitan rosewood and gumi are really the best I've received.

I like white oak as well! I have a set in white oak (well 4....so a small set, hah).

[Steve Voigt]

Those are some great looking chisels, Stan. Thanks for sharing.