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Thread: New small commercial shop design help sought!

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oregon, Wisconsin
    Posts
    301
    Wow--residental sprinkler codes! These are starting to catch on and spreading across the country. Nothing like that here yet.

  2. #17
    The 2012 or 2013 codes which just went into affect here in Minnesota, new construction homes over 4500 sq/ft had to have fire suppression. But, it's on hold for whatever reason. Everyone in the trades is fighting it it seems.

  3. #18
    Any updates?

    I'm slowly watching my dreams die over here.

    Being a commercial building, the State wants it drawn up by a Registered Architect. Whatever. Got a bid from one firm. $17,350. Hahaha! Come again? You realize it's just a box right? The amount of baloney is starting to piss me off to the point where I just want to say screw it, and close the doors. I can go live a comparative life of luxury being a greeter at Walmart. I won't wake up in the middle of the night worrying about something or listen to my wife's distaste for working long hours. At least I'd get a bloody paycheck on the regular.

    Got a bid for the electrical. I knew it was going to be high from these guys. I was guessing I'd be about $50k for everything if I shopped around, they came in at $110,000.00 on their estimate. Say what? I'm still waiting on another bid. I might have the opportunity to swap labor on it too, as an electrician buddy of mine, (who does primarily commercial commercial stuff), is building a house and will need cabinets for that house

    Right now I'm up to $513,000 total cost for a 60x120 stud frame building, with a 25x30, two story bump out for the office/bathrooms/mechanical. That includes the 5.62 acres of land I purchased. Total footage is 8700 sq/ft. I don't know how the heck to do it. I know that some stuff is going to be less, but I realistically need to trim about $100k out to make it even possible, much less affordable. I already paid for the land, but with the cost of the land and capital on hand I've got a shade over $100k to dump into the project, that's marginally enough down to even get the note. That leaves me with a payment of ~$2800/month. Not including probably close to $1000 a month in taxes. The insurance, electrical, and heat add about another $1000 a month. More or less $5k a month I need to spend. That's a tumor just waiting to happen.


    I really don't know what to do. My business is strangled in the tiny space we're leasing, I'm throwing money away every single month, and what I have planned is basically enough space for what I currently have. There's a space that will sit empty for a while waiting for a cnc to make it's way there, but that's really about it. I can't grow anymore than I have within these walls. I can't afford more space without the work, I can't do the work without more space. Chicken, meet Egg.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IL
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    5,275
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post

    My model

    Sure looks small for a 60X120 if those tools are to scale.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oregon, Wisconsin
    Posts
    301
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    Any updates?
    Moving forward with the engineer. I am hoping plans are finalized and submitted to the state by the end of the week. With the weather getting nice, I really want to get started.

    Hang in there--you can find a way to make it work! If it gets really bad, hire a pole barn company to build you something and they will deal with all the requirements! Submit the plans as rentable warehouse space--just don't mention woodworking!

    I have the same issues to deal with as you. The highest quote I got from an architect was a maximum price of $8k. I ended up going with the guy who designed my house, and his engineer. Price will come in around $3k ($2k will be in the form of a table he requested--architect likes to barter!). The engineer is 45-minutes outside of town--probably the reason for the good price! He has done some very nice buildings around Madison WI though. It helped that I gave him all my drawings to save a lot of time. Many wouldn't even talk to me!

    My 60x144 will probably come in around $260k for the building when complete. Land is paid for. This includes hiring my brother-in-law to do the framing with me to save some cash (he is in construction and experienced). I'll probably do the electrical too--I have experience in this area. Most of my wiring is going to be in conduit screwed to the wall--nothing fancy. The state does not prohibit the building owner from doing his own electrical. Plumbing and HVAC have to be subbed out though because it is commercial! Heat is going to be overhead radiant--low cost. I'm going to install myself and pay for them to hook it up. I may install a conventional furnace and air conditioning in the office. We will see what the bids come in at. I think I have enough budgeted for it. I would have liked in-floor, but the material alone was $30k!

    Have to get the building done this summer at all costs. I saw some of the newer regulations coming down the pipe. Wisconsin is a bit behind--thank goodness. The 2500 sq ft with firewalls to eliminate sprinklers might be abolished in the next adoption.

    Biggest and only real change right now is switching to 2x8 wood framing from icf. I decided I did not want to take on the risk and am subbing out far more work than anticipated. Stick-built commercial buildings seem to be very popular right now in my area--they are going up everywhere.

    BTW--I'm in St. Paul until Wednesday--not far from you. IIRC.........

    Greg

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oregon, Wisconsin
    Posts
    301
    Martin,

    Forgot to ask--what are you using for a CNC and software? I flew down to Stiles in NC and drooled over all the equipment on display there. I really want a CNC after watching the Weeke Vantech pump out perfect cabinet parts fast! I really liked the beam saws too--but that is the woodworker in me that has to take a back seat to the best economics for the shop!

    Thanks--Greg

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    The 2012 or 2013 codes which just went into affect here in Minnesota, new construction homes over 4500 sq/ft had to have fire suppression. But, it's on hold for whatever reason. Everyone in the trades is fighting it it seems.
    It's part of the national code now but each city county & state can adopt it with amendments. Where I work they took it out because it adds too much cost to the building. Insurance companies I'm sure were pushing this as it will reduce their cost substantially.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Heidrick View Post
    Sure looks small for a 60X120 if those tools are to scale.
    They are to scale. They're within inches of the real thing. The CNC is a bit of a wag, the one I'm looking at says it needs a 16x16 area.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Stahl View Post
    Moving forward with the engineer. I am hoping plans are finalized and submitted to the state by the end of the week. With the weather getting nice, I really want to get started.

    Hang in there--you can find a way to make it work! If it gets really bad, hire a pole barn company to build you something and they will deal with all the requirements! Submit the plans as rentable warehouse space--just don't mention woodworking!

    I have the same issues to deal with as you. The highest quote I got from an architect was a maximum price of $8k. I ended up going with the guy who designed my house, and his engineer. Price will come in around $3k ($2k will be in the form of a table he requested--architect likes to barter!). The engineer is 45-minutes outside of town--probably the reason for the good price! He has done some very nice buildings around Madison WI though. It helped that I gave him all my drawings to save a lot of time. Many wouldn't even talk to me!

    My 60x144 will probably come in around $260k for the building when complete. Land is paid for. This includes hiring my brother-in-law to do the framing with me to save some cash (he is in construction and experienced). I'll probably do the electrical too--I have experience in this area. Most of my wiring is going to be in conduit screwed to the wall--nothing fancy. The state does not prohibit the building owner from doing his own electrical. Plumbing and HVAC have to be subbed out though because it is commercial! Heat is going to be overhead radiant--low cost. I'm going to install myself and pay for them to hook it up. I may install a conventional furnace and air conditioning in the office. We will see what the bids come in at. I think I have enough budgeted for it. I would have liked in-floor, but the material alone was $30k!

    Have to get the building done this summer at all costs. I saw some of the newer regulations coming down the pipe. Wisconsin is a bit behind--thank goodness. The 2500 sq ft with firewalls to eliminate sprinklers might be abolished in the next adoption.

    Biggest and only real change right now is switching to 2x8 wood framing from icf. I decided I did not want to take on the risk and am subbing out far more work than anticipated. Stick-built commercial buildings seem to be very popular right now in my area--they are going up everywhere.

    BTW--I'm in St. Paul until Wednesday--not far from you. IIRC.........

    Greg

    Yeah, I won't touch electrical stuff. I'm not smart enough to keep my fingers out of loud spinning blades. An open panel is an open invitation for me to ride the lightning.

    I think my HVAC cost was around $55k. The hanging heaters are a much less expensive option, but I've got heated floors now, and I don't think I could give them up. The office will be run off of mini-splits for secondary heat and for cooling. I've got a lot more overhead doors than you do as well. I think the quote on that was $17k for two 16', and two 20', both sizes are 14' tall.

    I'm likely going to have to do a 2x8 wall as well. Originally the plan was to do a 8' poured wall to the footing, then stack a 12', 2x6 wall on top. The foundation work was something like $55k, and I couldn't swallow that. Doing the foundation out of block and core filled is $16k to bring it up to grade.

    If you're driving up Hwy 52 to St. Paul, my shop is about 15 minutes off of Hwy 52. You're welcome to swing by if you like. I'm about half way between Rochester and St. Paul.







    Quote Originally Posted by Gregory Stahl View Post
    Martin,

    Forgot to ask--what are you using for a CNC and software? I flew down to Stiles in NC and drooled over all the equipment on display there. I really want a CNC after watching the Weeke Vantech pump out perfect cabinet parts fast! I really liked the beam saws too--but that is the woodworker in me that has to take a back seat to the best economics for the shop!

    Thanks--Greg

    No CNC currently. I've narrowed it down I think to an Andi model. Most likely a Omnitech Sellexx in a 5x10. There is nowhere to put anything else in my tiny little shop. The Weeke cnc's are sweet, but the come with a sweet price tag too. I'm not sure it's a justifiable expense if you're not running full shifts with it, which no small shop would be. I don't romanticize my job. I'm just here to make money. The right tool for the job. The way I'm doing cut out right now is pretty outdated, but I don't have anywhere to put the proper tooling at the moment, and it'll take a few years for me to feel safe making that kind of a capital investment after swallowing the new shop pill.


    I'm using Cabnetware. I don't think it really exists anymore? Best I can tell is that Planit rolled Cabnetware into Cabinetvision. I'm going to have to upgrade that as well before getting a cnc. Another probably $20k in software I really won't enjoy spending. I had a salesman in here when I enquired about upgrading versions, and they were pushing Cabinetvision, it seemed like the exact same thing I was running, just more options than what I currently have.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Phoenix AZ Area
    Posts
    2,010
    A bit off topic, on CNC. I've read a ton of articles on commercial shops moving to CNC. Make sure you consider all the costs, labor removed, rework removed, jobsite installs going smoother, material waste reduction, etc. From the articles I've read it seems that a CNC with an operator and a low wage load and unload worker replace 5-6 heads. When I was last at IWS I talked with a vendor selling robots to load and unload CNCs. The lease cost was like $200 per month for each. That $400 a month is a lot less than labor, benefits, and taxes.

  10. #25
    Attachment 334741
    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Jensen View Post
    A bit off topic, on CNC. I've read a ton of articles on commercial shops moving to CNC. Make sure you consider all the costs, labor removed, rework removed, jobsite installs going smoother, material waste reduction, etc. From the articles I've read it seems that a CNC with an operator and a low wage load and unload worker replace 5-6 heads. When I was last at IWS I talked with a vendor selling robots to load and unload CNCs. The lease cost was like $200 per month for each. That $400 a month is a lot less than labor, benefits, and taxes.
    CNC has a + - depending on how it is used. In commercial most parts are square and can be somewhat compared. They break, operators take off sick,layouts aren't ready on time,wrong materials used,waiting on parts,etc..There's a lot more to its operation than profits.
    Where they are useful.....

    As far as dust collection. There's a lot of ways to skin a cat if you look around. Used and a horse farm takes the saw dust. No dumpster.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by jack duren; 03-29-2016 at 5:57 PM.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oregon, Wisconsin
    Posts
    301

    Building Update

    Received conditional approval today from the state! I had to invest a significant amount of money to achieve this, but the major hurdle is over. Construction can start after Village Board approval next Monday night. I have no idea why they would not approve--I expect unanimous approval.

    You should see the building now--it has gotten significantly more expensive, but looks cool. It only cost me the big chunk of change I was saving for a down payment on a new CNC machine :-(

    Greg

  12. #27
    You're not building on commercial ground?

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IL
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    5,275
    All you need is a cnc shapeoko anyway right? Your approval cost more than my shed.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Courtenay BC Canada
    Posts
    2,605
    Well.

    I would consider a garage door and man door in each of the 4 segments. The reason is for building value. If you run into hard times, you can rent out one of the 1/4's .. You never know what will happen.

    If you keep the building, the day will probably come you will want to rent it out as retirement income. Normally 4 smaller spaces will net you more income than one big one.

    Otherwise great plan.

    On the Architect, tell him to make sure he saves you $18,000 with good money saving ideas.


    Only other thing I would do is gable the roof on the front because it creates a decent spot for a sign. And run wiring up there for a lit sign, or lights to show your sign off..

    What about Skylights to allow natural light ?
    Last edited by Rick Fisher; 05-18-2016 at 11:08 PM.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Oregon, Wisconsin
    Posts
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    Yes--commercial business park.

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