New small commercial shop design help sought!

[Gregory Stahl]

Here is what I ended up with after working with architect. Went with gable ends and bumped up to 6/12 pitch. More room for overhead radiant heat, and conventional duct in front room. This is more along the lines of my initial plan. The peak is about 30' tall.

I am framing garage doors for the far back room, but filling them in for now. Wife is thinking we should expand in a year to add on rental units as there is strong demand around here. If that develops, I will move storage back into one of the units, and then back room will be finishing only.

Plenty of room for a nice sign on the front. I'm going for an old rustic/alpine feel to the building. A wood sign with metal lights that curve up an over shining down on it is in the works. Old--billboard style.

For the retail side of things, thinking of a new retail name. Hickory Hills or Kettle Creek are the front runners, both based on local topology.

Stahl Elevations.jpg

[Gregory Stahl]

All you need is a cnc shapeoko anyway right? Your approval cost more than my shed.

Ha-ha.... I am a Biesse CNC fan now! Went to Charlotte to look them over last week at their Encore Event. Very, very nice!

Made passage doors on a Rover. I am sold--a couple minutes for what I spend a couple hours doing! Cut out a base cabinet. 2-minutes, 10-seconds! Very little dust, some extractor thing on the router that worked great!

[Martin Wasner]

Not picking on you, just questions and thoughts as I'm going through the same BS.


What is your ceiling height? From the elevations it looks very low. I'm planning on a 16' sidewall just for resale. I wish I could go 20'. (I also wish I could go tip up panels) The cheapest storage you've got is going up. 12' works, but it's nice being able to stack spare units of material right at the ceiling. It also takes more dust collection to lift material higher.


How big are the overhead doors? I'm planning on 2, 16x14, and 2, 20x14. Partially the same reason, resale. I might have to delete one of the 16' overhead doors just to save some money, but I really don't want to loose the airflow that door will provide. Also nobody ever whines about the door being too big to get something in. The shop next door has just one 10' overhead door and half an hour ago I unloaded 10' mdf with my forklift. Doesn't fit through a 10' door. Also, spec out the 3" commercial doors, instead of the 2". Much more durable, higher R value. Also much more expensive, but I think worth it. Make sure to get the commercial openers as well.

I totally get wanting your building to look nice. It's been one of my goals from the start and I didn't want just another steel box, but at the end of the day pretty doesn't make you money. Production space does. I had 1500 sq/ft of office and showroom planned out, I think that's getting wiped out since the $100k I spend on that could easily go somewhere else, (like rental space). I don't deal with customers at the shop though, so my view is skewed. I don't work with the public too often, almost solely builders and their designers, they don't care about showrooms.

You've got a lot of pass doors. Windows and doors create potential security problems. The more points of entry you have, the more points thieves or vandals will have to get in. Might never be a problem, but.

What are you bringing in for electrical service? It may cost more now, but it's a heck of a lot cheaper to bring in extra amperage in now than running a parallel feed in the future. When I got my new widebelt I had to bring in another service. That extra 200 amps cost me $5000. I'm planning on bringing in 800 amps of 480V in my new shop. That's twice my needs right now, but when you start getting into bigger equipment, it goes way too quickly. Moulder, big sander, CNC, big rip saw, etc. chew up the juice quickly. If you're running a 10hp spindle, and a 40hp vacuum pump on a cnc, you're going to need ~155 amps on 208V. On 480V you'll only need ~70 amps. My boiler for the in floor heat pulls 200 amps on 208V, less than half on 480V. Switch gear has cost, the breakers cost more, a step down transformer has cost, but everything you can switch over to 480V the better. Less wire, less pipe, or you can jamb more stuff into one pipe. You can run the lighting in a shop that size on a 15amp breaker running off the high leg too. We run out of distribution pretty quickly since we have so many small pieces of equipment. The more you can put on one circuit the better. Have you got a electrical bid yet? Buckle up if you haven't, my first bid was $110,000



Depending on what you get, from what I can tell Biesse builds a good CNC. Woodweb is an excellent source for CNC info. There's a lot of big guys running them hard on there and the weak get shouted down quickly. Check out an Andi router as well. I've been looking at the Omnitech Selexx in a 5x10 myself. Don't bother with their vacuum pump. Way too small unless all you're doing is full sheets of melamine. The most important thing is service. How quickly can you get parts? Don't buy anything with a Seimens controller. I've read about a lot of problems that the Fanuc just doesn't seem to have. Money no object, I'd get a Weeke.

[Gregory Stahl]

The walls are 14' 4 1/2" at the side, and vaulted up to almost 22' at the peak inside. The outside peak is about 30'. The 6/12 pitch hides about 1 1/2' of wall at the top, makes the building look not as tall.

The garage doors are 14' wide and 12' tall. I do have 3" thick doors already spec'd from a local door company. They are also providing the steel roll-up fire doors in the barrier walls. These are pricey but necessary. Total garage door quote is $15k-something installed, commercial openers and fire controls for the roll ups. 3" thick outside doors R-twenty-something.

Unfortunately, doors are a necessity. I believe the architect said we need two exits for every area. Some of the exits can be internal to another area, bit in the end this is what we came up with to meet code. We were concerned they would require doors in the window side of the building--really did not want those!

I am not to worried about thieves. My current shop was broke into just before I moved in. Thieves knocked a whole in the wall and went into plumbers shop and stole all his copper! I may install a security system with motion detectors in the new shop. Current shop has ADT, but it is not always in use.

For electrical, I will bring in 480V. Have to work with electric company to see if I should put in a transformer for the 208V or if I can bring both in. They plan to put the transformer right outside my building.

I'll be doing the electrical, or most of it. I have experience. I did budget enough to get panels installed if I am running behind--not certain if an electrician would do just this though.

I looked over the Weeke Vantech very well and was wanting this machine for some time. I just returned from Biesse in Charlotte last week. I went in thinking I was just shopping and there was no way they were going to get me to break away from Stiles. Well, I have to say I was very impressed! I believe Biesse is more advanced with CNC technology than Weeke. Specifically, the Rover S is a phenomenal machine. The Rover S has C-axis capability as well! This will turn the machine into more than just a panel CNC. I plan to use it for passage doors and am working with Rangate to see if I can cope and stick cabinet doors on it. The answer is yes--people are doing it!

I paid a lot for engineering and architects in the end, but I believe it was well worth it. Got through the state on our first attempt. It is much easier working with contractors when you send them very detailed, well designed plans!

Best,
Greg

[Gregory Stahl]

More comments regarding the Biesse Rover S. We cut out a complete base cabinet, dowel construction, bored holes for shelf. The Rover S cut the complete cabinet (4x8 sheet) out in 2-minutes 10-seconds! There was very little dust--they had a device on the spindle that sucked most of it out!

HSD heads are on the Biesse and Vantech. HSD is part of the Biesse group of companies!

The second day I was there, Biesse made solid wood passage doors on a Rover K. My jaw dropped. What I do in a couple hours, they did in minutes! I am thinking I can do the same on the Rover S--just a little more setup time with the pods.

[Martin Wasner]

How's your nightmare going?

I'm hoping to pull my permit in August. If I can get the loan sorted before then I'll get the excavator going on the pad, driveway, and parking lot so the carpenters aren't wading through mud. I can move dirt without a permit fortunately.

[Gregory Stahl]

FINALLY, ready to break ground! Just got the zoning approval end of last week. Insurance and financing should be ready in the next week. I have enough saved to start construction and will do so while waiting on financing if it takes longer than next week. Bank said loan is all ready to go, just waiting on appraisal to come in. Appraisals are over three weeks here because of the housing boom. Next week is three weeks. So, planning to break ground in about two weeks, maybe a little less.

I still have a lot of little things to do, but I can start construction. I need to get the landscape plan approved, the truss design stamped and submitted to the state for approval(state is requiring a review of this), sign approval and building light plan approved (state and village both requiring plan to be approved). There is probably a few more little things too, the list never ends with these government bodies.....

Insurance came in low, very happy with that! This includes a builders risk policy.

I thought I would have the building done by now when I started this project! Still, from purchase of property to completion will be under 1-year.

My shop landlord is adding about 9000 ft to his building. Construction is at 7-months already and the site is still a mess, but building is almost complete. His concrete guys took two weeks on the slab alone!

To pass the time--I spend what little free time I have watching Biesse and Stiles CNC videos. I'm definitely automating!

[Martin Wasner]

Ask your bank if you can start moving dirt before the appraisal. Any work prior to the appraisal can be problematic if the sub decides to f with you and put a lien on the project for things that the bank didn't cut a check for. They want the property free of incumbrances. Most of the time I believe they want you to dump your money into an escrow account , then they pay the draws.

I hear you on "I thought I'd be done by now" What bunch of bs it is trying to grow your business.

[Gregory Stahl]

Went over that with the bank already--they are good with it. I have enough cash to cover the excavation, so it should not be a problem.

[Martin Wasner]

Lucky you. My bank told me no. I could've covered all the site work too, but I was instructed to hold off. Would've been nice to have done it last year and given everything a frost cycle to settle.

[Martin Wasner]

How's the progress?

[Gregory Stahl]

Coming along. Framing right now. We had several weeks of rain delays. I had to pump for two weeks! Foundation guys were way behind because of this. We are in week 7 of construction, so not the end of the world, but the rain has cost me about $15k extra. When I say rain, I am talking several storms with inches of rain! I think with one storm alone, we got 8" in a couple of days.

We are backfilled now, so rain is running off property real nice.

Also, had to undercut half of the foundation due to buried topsoil, and the topsoil was anywhere from 12"-24" thick that we removed! With the parking lot included, I am going to have almost $30k of fill into this project!

I had a soil engineering company come out and evaluate. They did not charge much and stopped out 6 or 7-times. Best investment and it includes a nice 10+ page report I can include if I sell the place.

I'll post pictures soon, been way too busy!

Greg

[Martin Wasner]

Yeah, the weather this summer was interesting. If you get it, chances are it blew through here ten hours earlier.

Glad to hear you're making progress!

[Gregory Stahl]

Update on framing--we are so over budget with the rain and fill costs, I decided to save some money and pick up the 2x8s and OSB from Menards. There is a store about 40-minutes from here that has lower pricing than all the other stores around (local economy not so hot due to large GM factory closing years ago), so the savings were substantial, and with the 11% rebate, the material was about 20% lower priced than local Menards stores.

So--I felt comfortable doing this as I have been noticing premium units of lumber lately at the stores. Canfor is a brand that sells for premium prices around here, and Menards has been getting many of these in stock--select SPF lumber. So, I decided on Hampton Lumber 2x8s as I waited too long and missed the Canfor units--someone else probably grabbed them up! I knew the Hampton's would likely be a fir species which would be stronger than the Canadian SPF. Anyway--I opened the Hampton 2x8s today, and was happily surprised at what was staring back at me! Select Structural Douglas Fir--stamped premium! Wow! This stuff sells for more at the expensive lumber yards. Douglas Fir stays straight and is much stronger than SPF. My building is going to be strong, very strong!

I'll post some pics soon.

Greg

[Mike Heidrick]

Love the 11% rebates! I Ordered the last of my needed paint (40 gallons more) on Monday and it was at the local Menards store Tuesday at noon. Also the 2X6 bunk I bought last year was/is awesome. I have good luck with them.