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  1. #1
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    Oneida "Smart" Dust Collector

    I am looking to upgrade my dust collector to a 3 hp cyclone type. As others have commented, there are a lot of different options. I also found that there is a lack of believable data that the mfg post on their machines.

    I plan on running 6" duct to my larger machines and close to the machines reduce down to the 4" machine ports. Also, I have some equipment that has 2.5" ports.

    I was impressed with the information on the Oneida Smart Dust Collectors. They run on a 3 phase motor with a VFD. This allows a variable speed dust collector. As the air flow decreases when using a smaller port, the motor compensates and the static pressure goes up giving greater vacuum. It sounds like a pretty good design but not cheap.

    Does anyone have one of these Smart Dust Collectors and how has it worked for you?

  2. #2
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    I don't have one of these newer "smart" cyclones but the premise is pretty nice considering the prevalence of CNC and other "different" collection loads in so many shops now that are totally at odds from the collection needs of "more traditional" tools. Being able to sense collection characteristics and adjust for optimal performance is a pretty kewel thing. Historically, using a typical DC system, including a cyclone, for collection from smaller tools/ports wasn't recommended because of the nature of dust collection (large volume of air moving the "stuff") and that forced folks with both large and small tools to have multiple collection systems. That said, I'm an Oneida system owner (my second...and the first is still working in a friend's shop) and they have treated me well. It's all they do and I like that specialization as well as "born in Syracuse" for the systems.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Frank View Post

    I was impressed with the information on the Oneida Smart Dust Collectors. They run on a 3 phase motor with a VFD. This allows a variable speed dust collector. As the air flow decreases when using a smaller port, the motor compensates and the static pressure goes up giving greater vacuum. It sounds like a pretty good design but not cheap.
    It speeds up when the airflow goes down?

  4. #4
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    The Smart collector adjusts impeller speed to keep CFM within a set range. The impeller design is different so it performs better under higher pressure but the downside is that it will produce less cfm at low pressure than a traditionally designed collector. The Smart will deliver more cfm when a machine has a small port or internal restrictions but larger ports will see less than an equal sized regular system. The benefit really depends on your application and the range of machine sizes. I run a similar impeller design with a 7.5 hp motor and would suggest you look hard at the 5 hp smart if you go that route given the trade offs. A radial impeller , three phase motor, and vfd will give you the same results if you are willing to adjust speed manually when you need it. Dave

  5. #5
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    We just got two of the Smart DC's for the Guild Shop. Haven't put them through all the paces but I will say this. Man they really SUCK and they are quieter that our other DC's.
    Chuck

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Kumm View Post
    .... A radial impeller , three phase motor, and vfd will give you the same results if you are willing to adjust speed manually when you need it...
    If you're willing to do a bit of programming of the VFD I think you could make it automatic, like the SMART. For a given blower, motor and load the most CFM you can get is at the RPM that causes the motor to draw it's rated full load current. A control loop that adjusts frequency (up to a safe maximum) to maintain full rated current would then get the most CFM out of the system over a variety of load conditions.

    There's no need to measure CFM. It wouldn't be useful even if you did because you always have to keep the motor current within it's rated limit. I suspect that's exactly what the SMART system is doing. Take a look at it's performance curve, it's not constant CFM at all.
    Beranek's Law:

    It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker. In this case, the frequency response of the loudspeaker seems to play only a minor part in forming a person's opinion.
    L.L. Beranek, Acoustics (McGraw-Hill, New York, 1954), p.208.

  7. #7
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    I really have no idea how to program a VFD. I want to get the right dust collector for me. For some, figuring out how to make their own "Smart" Dust Collector would be interesting. I just want it to come on when I push a switch and do a great job sucking chips and fines.

    It sounds like there are not too many using this dust collector.

  8. #8
    I'm looking at getting a few of them for dust collection on the benches since they will work on the chop boxes and with a da. Also to relieve some load on the main dust collector.

  9. #9
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    I'll be the naysayer about the "Smart DC." Frankly, what a dumb idea!!! Tell me what you gain by not running that the motor at design RPM (full capacity)? True, with a VFD you can overspeed a three phase motor but you risk damaging it if it overheats and you reduce bearing life, and you also risk stalling the impeller (airflow stall like with a jet engine compressor, not stalling the motor). But why would you spend nearly $3000 to be able to increase the airspeed so you can draw a max of only 20" of H2O through a 2-1/2 pipe when you can buy a shopvac for a fraction of that price that will pull the same CFM but at 80 to 100" H2O? Let a DC do the large duct DC high CFM work, but let a shopvac handle the high SP tasks! By running it slower than rated RPM, you gain absolutely nothing, except possibly saving a penny every now and then. Since that thing has pretty much a material handling blower with fixed pitch/size, non-airfoil impeller, if you slow it down you reduce CFM and static pressure. When would you ever want to do that???? When you are talking dust collection, there is no such thing as too much CFM (or SP).
    Last edited by Alan Schaffter; 03-11-2016 at 1:55 AM.

  10. #10
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    Alan, you have to consider that the reason for this type of DC system is to accomodate the characteristics of CNC/CAM machinery which typically has smaller collection ports and requires higher SP/lower volume. For the average Joe with traditional equipment, they are not likely the best choice, however.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  11. #11
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    What characteristics of a CNC machine are you trying to accommodate? If the dust pickup is small, so be it- the DC will just be operating at a different point on the fan curve where the SP and velocity is higher. The dust and chip removal at the CNC should be fine. Again, I see absolutely no reason to ever slow down a DC motor. This whole idea is a gimmick with no purpose other than marketing to the uninformed!

  12. #12
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    It's not a "gimmick", IMHO. It's an optimization effort. That said, I have not looked at the fan curves from Oneida which undoubtedly would be useful to understand the performance of the system.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  13. #13
    Rather than slow the motor down, what if you speed it up?

    Assume a DC is designed to operate at FLA with a typical duct design and a 6” port, and then you swap that 6” port for a 2.5” port. The result is an impeller starved for air. Let’s also assume just for a moment that the impeller isn’t stalled. So the motor unloads (current drops below FLA). You could now increase the motor speed until you’re back at FLA – again assuming that the impeller doesn’t stall, start to buffet the neighbor’s house, or turn into a tornado siren.

    If anyone can accept the above, then using a ‘large’ impeller on a ‘small’ motor, protected from OL by the VFD, can achieve the same thing. Just slow it down when the full-flow port is open.

    Is it cost effective? Probably not.

    Is it a design compromise? Absolutely. ALL design is.

    A gimmick? Nearly everything has a bit of this DNA these days. (I’m a registered cynic.)

    Uninformed? Not if you hang out here!

    Let’s test it’s efficiency and effectiveness. Everybody send me $20, I’ll buy one and report back. ...Hello? Anybody here?! HELLO!!?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Becker View Post
    It's not a "gimmick", IMHO. It's an optimization effort. That said, I have not looked at the fan curves from Oneida which undoubtedly would be useful to understand the performance of the system.
    Explain "optimization"? You certainly don't want to reduce fan performance (CFM and SP) no matter what size pipe, so that eliminates any need for a VFD to slow down the blower, right. You effectively limit CFM by choice of pipe diam., right? The design of the blower/impeller affects how it performs (vac impellers are drastically different than DC material handling impellers). Since you are not changing the impeller other than to possibly speed it up and since that machine's primary role is as a DC not a vac, you will not see much of any improvement in CFM or SP without changing duct size. So, again why a VFD.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Schaffter View Post
    Explain "optimization"? You certainly don't want to reduce fan performance (CFM and SP) no matter what size pipe, so that eliminates any need for a VFD to slow down the blower, right. You effectively limit CFM by choice of pipe diam., right? The design of the blower/impeller affects how it performs (vac impellers are drastically different than DC material handling impellers). Since you are not changing the impeller other than to possibly speed it up and since that machine's primary role is as a DC not a vac, you will not see much of any improvement in CFM or SP without changing duct size. So, again why a VFD.

    Fan curves which plot air flow CFM as a function of static pressure are generated at the rpm the fan spins at. With a normal motor, this means there is one fan curve since there is one motor speed.

    With a variable speed motor, you would have a set of fan curves for each motor speed. So you would find a reasonable low speed curve based on the motor performance (at some point, the fan on the motor may not move enough air to cool it) and the fan. You would also do a curve to find a reasonable upper speed limit for both motor and fan performance. Now you have a low speed, normal speed, and high speed fan curve.

    With variable speed, you can now have a wider set of more optimal dust extraction for a wider variety of duct work suction conditions.

    VFD's are getting cheaper all the time and this has allowed their use in many applications where they used to be too expensive or impractical to apply. Many air conditioners now have VFD's to allow optimized air condition based on differing cooling and humidity removal requirements.

    So a smart dust extractor could certainly provide useful dust extracion for certain users depending on their tool and duct work situation

    In order to know whether the extra expense is worth it, it would be useful to have more information on how the system works such as the high and low speed curves and a thorough knowledge of the resistance provided by your ductwork and tooling.

    As an example of where such a system would be beneficial would probably be a shop equiped with regular machinery like table saws, drum sanders or such that has been properly ducted for extraction by more conventional practice and another machine like a cnc router which might needs more CFM than a vacuum cleaner can provide and greater performance at high static pressure loses than a sincle speed dust extractor can provide. Speeding the impeller up in a Smart cyclone may provide substantially better dust extraction in such a scenario, but it would be good to have a couple of fan curves for various speeds higher than the normal speed to see how the fan CFM and static pressure behaves as a function of rpm.
    Last edited by Sean Tracey; 03-15-2016 at 12:40 PM.

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