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Thread: Oneida "Smart" Dust Collector

  1. #46
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    I understand the change in a fan curve relating to rpm but many impellers used in standard collection systems top out after a certain rpm and speeding it up doesn't gain much additional. In addition, a vfd can't really increase much over 60 hz efficiently due to the limit on voltage. I can see an increase in cfm with my radial fan that is rated up to 4400 rpm but there is a limit to how much the motor can speed up within the amp limits. I doubt the Smart is designed to run much over 60 hz, but rather is oversized so when at low pressure runs slower than 60 hz and under high pressure speeds back up. A curved blade impeller by nature won't pull cfm at 23"sp unless sized over 18" in diameter. I have seen pictures of the 5 hp regular smart that operates up to 15" and it is curved so the extra couple of inches must come from the housing design or perhaps a few extra hz. I wonder if the blade design for the high vac models differ and how as most high pressure impellers I've seen are belt driven and radial so as to operate well over 3600 rpm. Dave

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael W. Clark View Post
    You mention sanding on a downdraft table. Are you wanting to connect to the downdraft table or to the sander?

    If connecting to the downdraft table, use a standard dust collector. More CFM is better and if this is a home-made downdraft, you can add more holes or make it larger so your collector pulls more CFM (more holes = less restriction = higher CFM from the fan).

    If connecting to the sander, you want a shop-vac style because you will be using a 1-1/4" hose. I would not want to wrestle a sander with 2-1/2" hose.

    I didn't know the Oneida collector filters are HEPA rated, maybe so now? The Festool vacs have HEPA 2nd stage filters. Although the vacs are expensive, they are very quiet and replacement HEPA filters in those have to be much less than a HEPA for a 3HP collector. In general, sanding dust is too fine for consumer grade cyclones anyway, a lot of it will end up in your filters, blinding them. Also, when you pull less CFM, the cyclone efficiency in drastically reduced which will allow even more carryover to the filters.

    Mike
    I don't know if this is angled at me or not, but the bulk of my sanding is done on a 4x6, 5000cfm downdraft table. Suction at the sander itself isn't necessary there, but that's only good for sanding right there and for smaller items. I need a solution for the assembly benches. I need decent cfm for the chop saws, and adequate vacuum for the sanders on the benches. To me I'd think that smaller cyclone would work pretty well for that.

  3. #48
    VFD's can be used to spin a motor at some amount more than 60 hz depending on the specific application. Of course, an impeller spinning faster must be balanced to handle the higher speed and the motor must be capable of withstanding the extra forces involved.

    Bumping the hz from 60 to 67 hz would give maybe 400 rpm more on a 3450 rpm motor.

    I have no idea what oneida has done for each of it's smart systems, but I believe it at least possible that the impellers could be identical to those used in some of their single speed units. They would apply the vfd and then figure out how much performance could be extracted as well as programming in protection against spinning the impeller to fast for mechanical sturdiness, hp limitations, or in a manner that would hurt the flow characteristics.

    If results were unsatisfactory, then they would go through the extra expense of designing a new impeller and/or housing.

    They could also do a larger than normal impeller and spin it at slower than normal speeds as you stated.

    The point is, speed control, applied properly, can be very useful in a device such as a dust extractor.

  4. #49
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    Sean, I agree totally with you. I run with a vfd for that purpose. When I had an Oneida 15" curved blower, I was told to stay within 3-5 hz over 60 and while I got a little more cfm, it wasn't worth the additional noise. I don't remember the actual increase but it wasn't much. I've had better results with my radial when adjusting speed but it is much more loud and the impeller itself is much heavier. What I don't know is how much the housing design and the distance from the blades to the housing affect performance at higher pressure. Dave

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martin Wasner View Post
    I don't know if this is angled at me or not, but the bulk of my sanding is done on a 4x6, 5000cfm downdraft table. Suction at the sander itself isn't necessary there, but that's only good for sanding right there and for smaller items. I need a solution for the assembly benches. I need decent cfm for the chop saws, and adequate vacuum for the sanders on the benches. To me I'd think that smaller cyclone would work pretty well for that.
    No Martin, this was directed at the OP. He mentioned that he wanted to use a downdraft table for sanding.

    I would suspect the Smart would work well on the chop saw, but I think you want volume there, so a single speed 3hp would be just as good. The small hose and high SP required for hand sanders is likely not a good match for the Smart (I'm assuming these are like an ROS?). It's hard to say for sure without the specs on your sanders.

  6. #51
    I have the 5HP SmartPro. Currently having some issues and Oneida has not been able to help. Frustrated. See here.

  7. #52
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    Dan...I watched your video and not certain what your issue is. Could you explain?

  8. #53
    Join Date
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    This thread is an excellent discourse on dust collection so I've decided to stick it at the top for a while. I might need to amend things as we go so I'd appreciate everyone staying on topic to keep my workload minimal.
    Wood: a fickle medium....

    Did you know SMC is user supported? Please help.

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Schmidt View Post
    I have the 5HP SmartPro. Currently having some issues and Oneida has not been able to help. Frustrated. See here.
    I don't think you have a problem except that you need to hold the button long enough for the starter to latch in, which is what you finally did!
    Lee Schierer - McKean, PA

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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Tracey View Post
    $600 dollar range vacs might pull n the 80 to 100" range and they move only 80 to 130 CFM.

    A 3 hp smart collector moves 384 CFM at 23" which Oneida shows in their chart as performance through 10 feet of 2.5 inch flex duct. This might be similar to what can be applied to a CNC router.
    But what are you connecting that 2.5" duct to? It won't do anything for dust generated by a machine tool. The higher 80" - 130" SP from a shopvac will certainly pull much better from a ROS, router, etc. than only 23"!!!! especially when most of them only have 1" - 1.5" ports. No matter how you slice it, it just doesn't make sense. I sure would like to see an independent test where the smart thing is pulling 384 CFM through 10' of 2.5" flex. That is about what a small (1.5 - 2 hp) DC typically pulls from a 4" pipe.

  11. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Alan, it might be a connection to a CNC machine which uses a spindle/Router and a smaller pickup port. I believe that was the original reason that Oneida started coming out with these designs...the changing landscape of tools in the small pro shop.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #57
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    After reading the thread it struck me that there was no mention of what I think is the most optimized solution for a budget that includes the Smart. There was no mention of the Dust Cobra. Within the general budget range of the Oneida Smart cyclones one can get an equavalent HP cyclone and a Dust Cobra. The Dust Cobra makes an extremely good total shop vacuum with a much higher CFM than a shop vac or premium dust extractor along with being true HEPA and using a "quiet" induction motor. The negative compared to a Smart system is two sets of piping. While not as cheap as a shop vac (only slightly more than a Festool CT) it is a much better extractor for small port machines, including overarm TS guards (unless you have a 4" port). The combination of a 5hp cyclone and a Dust Cobra seems to be the best small shop solution if you have the money and if one is considering the Smart from Oneida then they do. While the Dust Cobra's 70" of water doesn't match the best vacuums very high SPs are not needed for DC but the much higher CFM of the Dust Cobra is. I know a lot of people balk at the price of the Dust Cobra but if you are willing to spend Smart money then it shouldn't be an issue coupled with an "standard" Oneida or Clearvue cyclone the money is still very comparable.
    5,306 miles from where the greatest things with 4 wheels are born
    5,328 miles from where the greatest things with 2 wheels are born
    5,301 miles from where the greatest things with 2 wheels and a band are born
    Seems to be more than a coincidence to me...

  13. #58
    No statistics or speculation here. I have a 3 hp Smart DC and it works great. Connected by 6" pipe with 5" drop down hoses to a 16" jointer planer, a PM66 table saw, an Excalibur router table, and a Minimax 20" bandsaw. It is quite powerful, reliable, sucks like crazy and I am extremely happy with it. The run to the j/p is 30 feet and it leaves almost no dust at all. Very easy to empty the 35 gallon drum. I have three of the remote switches so regardless of where I am in the shop it is a snap to turn it on and off. I had a few issues when first setting it up and Oneida was great. Their tech guy even called me on a Saturday to diagnose the issue and talked me through the fix. That was two years ago and have not had any problem since. So from a user's point of view, I think it's great. Hope that helps.

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