Saw sharpening input

[Phil Mueller]

This is a garage sale 5.5ppi crosscut (or at least will be). The first photo is what I'm working with. I'm using Dykem to keep track. The second photo is about half way with one side only. I'm filing (or trying to file!) 12* rake, 20* fleam. I'm using a 8 regular file.

I'm filing until I get to somewhere between 1/3 to less than 1/2 of the file width and as close a sharp "v" at the gullet as it seems the file will produce. It's taking a good 10-12 strokes to get there.

Any comments? Good to go for the rest of the saw?
Thanks.

image.jpg image.jpg

[Stew Denton]

Hi Phil,

Believe me, there are drastically better saw sharpeners than I am on this site, but I would make a couple of comments.

First, as you probably know, 5.5 points is a very common type for a rip saw, but uncommon for a crosscut. It is pretty coarse for anything but EXTREMELY rough work for a crosscut saw. It is very hard to start a crosscut saw that coarse. If it were me, I would sharpen it as a rip saw, leaving it a rip saw, and not make it into a cross cut saw. This is just my humble opinion, and nothing more, but in my view, 5.5 points is good for a rip saw but makes for a lousy crosscut.

If you are keen to have it be a crosscut, I would retooth it to an 8 point if you want it for a general purpose crosscut saw, or to a 10 or 12 point if you want it as a cross cut saw for fine woodworking. We used to use 8 point crosscut saws for general carpentry, and they worked fine for use in framing, but we used 10s and sometimes even 12s for finish work. Thus, I think 5.5 points is way to much of a good thing for a crosscut saw.

When I sharpen a saw, the first thing I do is take an ordinary mill file, lay it lengthwise down the tooth line with the file square to the saw plate, and run the file lengthwise down the length of the teeth. Repeat this until you get a small flat on the end of each tooth. I then use the three corner file from one side of the saw until 1/2 of each flat disappears. The saw is then turned around in the saw vise, and I file on the teeth until the other half of the flat disappears and you have nice sharp points. The purpose of the flat made by the mill file is so that when the flat just disappears in sharpening, then all the teeth are the same height. If you need to set the teeth, do that here, but do not get too carried away, as it is VERY EASY to get too much set, and such is often the case with many saw sharpeners.

Once that is done it may be necessary to run a stone down one side of the teeth or the other, sometimes both, if the saw pulls one way or the other.

I am afraid that it looks like you may be heading for a situation where the teeth on one side of the saw are taller than the teeth on the other side. It may only be the camera angle, or something similar, but it does kind of look like that may be going on. Thus the reason for using a mill file to make a flat on the end of each tooth.

That said, it looks like the teeth on the saw were a hideous mess before you bought it, and I am virtually certain that what you are doing will make it a lot better.

Remember, however, that there are much better folks at sharpening a saw than I am, so consider what I saw with a grain of salt.

Stew

[Jim Koepke]

Phil,

Stew makes some good points. He may not have caught that you have only filed the teeth on one side so far.

It is easier to get the teeth all to the same height by first jointing the saw with a mill file as he suggested. Be careful, wear gloves and if need be make a holder for the file out of a block of wood. Cut a slot square in the block of wood to snugly hold the file.

Then as Stew said only cut until half the flat is gone from the tooth. The other half gets removed when you come back for the other side. It is sometimes necessary to joint the saw a few times.

I like a 5.5ppi crosscut for things like 4X6s and railroad ties.

jtk

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you both. Points well taken. I guess I'm not as concerned with the actual daily usefulness as getting a feel for crosscut sharpening on a larger tooth saw before going to the finer crosscut saws. I have a professionally hand sharpened 5.5 rip already, so wasn't really looking for a second. To your point Jim, it may just become my construction lumber saw.

Before more jump in with comments, let me take the advice, joint the saw, file some teeth and post an update.

[george wilson]

You are getting "Long tooth,short tooth" as seen in photo #2 because you are filing at an uphill angle instead of holding the file straight across the saw. It is always tempting to do that because it at least gives you the feeling that the sound will be less grating,I suppose. That won't happen anyway,regardless of how you file if you have the saw blade closely clamped in a vise so the teeth can't vibrate. You don't want a grating,vibrating sound as it is VERY HARD on the file. Breaks the cutting edge off of the file teeth.

Now,what I mean is you can hold the saw at an angle as seen vertically if you are filing for a crosscut saw. but,seen from the side of the file,it should be 90 degrees to the blade.

Respectfully,the long tooth,short tooth has nothing to do with jointing the teeth. It is just because you're holding the file at an uphill angle.

You are also filing a "stub tooth",where the teeth form a perfect pyramid instead of a
pyramid tilted towards the direction of cutting.. The saw will cut,but it will not cut as well at all the way you're filing it. The excessively backwards cutting angle you are filing will prevent that,and the saw will not give you a satisfactory "sharp" feel as it saws.It won't want to dig into the wood with the excessive backwards cutting angle. If you don't understand,try sawing with a sharp,factory sharpened saw,then compare the "feel" to your saw.

You ARE doing a neat job of it,and I am certain that when you get the file and the angles correct,you will have learned to file a saw very well.

I hope you understand what I mean. I have tried to explain it as simply as I can since I woke up in the middle of the night and just lay there until I got up.

[Phil Mueller]

Thank you George. I do understand and appreciate your comments. I hope you'll all indulge me as I go through this learning curve. I'll give it another run and post an update for input.

[Tom M King]

Joint first. Take half of the flat from each side. If you don't do this, you will almost always get the teeth out of proportion on each side. This is the most common error people make to start with. You don't always have to joint, but you really need to when you are first learning.

[george wilson]

I didn't mean NOT to joint. But jointing is not the cause of the "long tooth,short tooth" problem. As messed up as that saw looked when you started,no doubt it needed jointing.

[Tom M King]

The reason for jointing is to give you a guide for maintaining tooth height. Stop filing when you run out of flat. Use that as a guide, and not how much of the file you use. Any filing past that will make a tooth too short. It's harder to get one that's not even on both sides balanced, but if you can do that, you will have learned a lot. I believe you'll get it though.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks. Makes total sense.

[Tom M King]

Pressure on the file goes straight down.....most of the time, and it's really not that much pressure. That way you are taking the same amount off the back of one tooth as you do off the front of another tooth-the reason why you take half of the flat from jointing on the first side, and then the rest when you turn the saw around. There are times when you need to take more off of one part than the other, but leave that for later. Best to just get the feel for the file to start with, and what it does.

When I'm sharpening one that's in good shape but dull, I try to joint just enough so one full stroke of the file is all I need. Once you learn how to sharpen, you will not let one get dull past the point where this will work. Otherwise, not only will the saw not work as well, but the amount of work goes up for one sharpening session.

This is different than sharpening a chainsaw chain, where you push straight back into the tooth with the file

[Pat Barry]

This is a garage sale 5.5ppi crosscut (or at least will be). The first photo is what I'm working with. I'm using Dykem to keep track. The second photo is about half way with one side only. I'm filing (or trying to file!) 12* rake, 20* fleam. I'm using a 8 regular file.

I'm filing until I get to somewhere between 1/3 to less than 1/2 of the file width and as close a sharp "v" at the gullet as it seems the file will produce. It's taking a good 10-12 strokes to get there.

Any comments? Good to go for the rest of the saw?
Thanks.

image.jpg image.jpg

Hey Phil, I found the information at Vintage Saws to be very helpful. Not sure if you have seen this. Lots of good tips regarding how to file.

[David Eisenhauer]

Thanks so very much for starting this thread Phil. I just received my file order from LV this afternoon and am working my way towards starting on saw sharpening. The info received from your photos, plus the advice from George and Tom is just the exact kind of stuff that works for me when just starting out on something.

[lowell holmes]

Popular Woodworking has a video by Ron Herman. It is called "Sharpen Your Handsaw". It is a very good video to have if you are going to sharpen your saws.
Check it out.

[Phil Mueller]

Thanks again all. I jointed it until all teeth had a small flat and gave it another run on the first dozen teeth or so (both directions). Taking off half the flat on the first direction, and taking it to a point on the second. "Flats" we're not all the same size, so some took more filing than others.

The teeth are darn level, even if the photo doesn't appear so. Gullet depth is pretty uneven - not sure that matters? I'm getting a few pyramid teeth and a somewhat uneven forward lean. It also looks like one or two didn't get filed to a fine point.

Is that just getting better at keeping the file angle more consistent? I am using a guide...but the muscle memory just isn't there yet. All comments appreciated.

And David, I hope you have a saw that's in better shape than this one. On the other hand, I frankly don't mind if I joint this thing down to nothing until I get it right

image.jpg image.jpg