What's wrong with Woodriver?!

[John Kananis]

Ok, this thread is a bit rhetorical but here's the story:

A buddy comes by the other day and as we're talking (obviously hanging out in the shop), he says, "Hey, is that a 4 1/2 over there?" I say yes and hand him the plane (it is a woodriver - I have others as well, LN, LV and Stanley; this one was among the mix). He was excited to notice the plane but when I handed it to him, I got an: "Oh, its a woodriver..." and he placed it down without a second look.

Gosh darned things are good planes - I understand the whole China thing but from a utilitarian perspective, what the hek?! Am I missing something, I love these planes - good price, good performance (even the mystery steel they use isn't that bad at all - although the stock blades in mine have been replaced I still think they're decent).

I guess I'm done venting but wouldn't mind your thoughts.

[Nicholas Lawrence]

I tried one a while ago at a Woodcraft. It seemed like a decent plane, but I did not like it enough to pay what they were asking. My old Stanleys seem to be just as good, and were much cheaper.

[Stew Denton]

John, there was a published review a few years ago that was none to good when it comes to the Woodriver planes. It was clear at that time that there were some significant problems with them.

However, one of the guys here on the Neander forum wrote one a while back that was really positive. Thus, if his report is typical of the more recent ones, then Woodriver Planes may be on the way.

Stew

[Frederick Skelly]

I have two of their v3 planes - a #3 and a #1. They work just fine. I'm told the V3 planes sre much better than earlier models, but don't know first hand what the originals were like.

Their smaller planes (#1- #4 1/2) seem to provide good value when stacked up against other brands. The value per dollar is less clear (to me) with the larger/longer ones.

Fred

[Jim Koepke]

My recollection could be off. A few years back, Woodcraft sold Lie Nielsen planes. Somewhat abruptly the relationship ended.

There were a few stories of various legal actions.

One explanation sounds very reasonable that when the relationship started it was one store. Woodcraft became a franchise. Lie Nielsen could not keep up with demand and keep to their mission of a high quality tool provider. There was also some problem with Woodcraft not wanting to train all of their store personnel in the use and handling of the Lie Nielsen product line.

I found a link to this information by searching on > woodcraft lie nielsen legal <

The above information was found at:

greystonegreen.blogspot.com/2009/12/chat-with-patrick-jackson-of-lie

I hope linking to a blog doesn't go against the TOS.

If it does and the moderator removes the link, search > chat with patrick jackson at lie <

Wow! A lot of posts between when I started this and when I pressed the post button. One thing I forgot to mention is a lot of businesses can die real fast when they have one big retailer who decides they no longer want to carry a product line. One good rule of business is to not have one customer you can not afford to lose.

jtk

[Prashun Patel]

I am with you John. I am star struck by the good brands and they have earned their reputation. But if someone hands me a good Bailey or woodriver that they can make sing, I am just as happy to work with it.

[Frederick Skelly]

Good article Jim. Thanks for posting it.

[Daniel Rode]

My planes are for woodworking only. I don't collect them as object to be admired and I don't really show them to people. My shop is a pretty solitary place

I bought a Wood River V3 #4. I can't think of a bad thing to say about it. I got it on sale for around $110 and I still feel it is the best new plane for the money. I think all their V3 bench planes are great planes and the prices are very good. Apparently the older WR planes had some issues but I never used any of them. All my other planes are vintage. The WR is prettier than the rest. Mechanically, It's smooth, predictable and precise. I'm not as sold on the block planes, but that's another story.

My issues with the WR planes is the same as I have with LN, Veritas, etc. A) They are heavy. B) I prefer --very slightly-- the Bailey style to the Bedrock style planes.

Sometimes a heavy plane is an advantage but, for me, that's rarely the case. I much prefer the lighter vintage planes. I'm afraid to try my hand with good wooden plane. I suspect I'd be hooked after one stoke

I also love using old tools for reasons that have nothing to do with money or status or superior quality.

[Patrick Chase]

Ok, this thread is a bit rhetorical but here's the story:

A buddy comes by the other day and as we're talking (obviously hanging out in the shop), he says, "Hey, is that a 4 1/2 over there?" I say yes and hand him the plane (it is a woodriver - I have others as well, LN, LV and Stanley; this one was among the mix). He was excited to notice the plane but when I handed it to him, I got an: "Oh, its a woodriver..." and he placed it down without a second look.

Gosh darned things are good planes - I understand the whole China thing but from a utilitarian perspective, what the hek?! Am I missing something, I love these planes - good price, good performance (even the mystery steel they use isn't that bad at all - although the stock blades in mine have been replaced I still think they're decent).

I guess I'm done venting but wouldn't mind your thoughts.

Jim alluded to this, but the way the WoodRiver / Lie-Nielsen / Rob Cosman thing went down left a bad taste in a lot of folks' mouths. Very truncated version: Cosman was L-N's Canadian distributor and had a lot of input to product development. For reasons that differ depending on who's telling the story he parted ways with L-N, and then turned around and worked with Quangsheng to design and manufacture the WR planes.

The WoodRiver BD planes and the Lie-Nielsens are both fundamentally Bed Rock clones, so at that level you can't really fault Quangsheng/WR - They both copied a design that has been in the public domain for almost a century. The picture gets a little less pleasant when you look at detailed execution though: There are several modifications that L-N made to the basic BedRock design and that have been copied by Quangsheng/Cosman/WR. L-N didn't patent those when they were first starting, probably because doing so would have cost more than they could afford back then. This FWW piece itemizes the similarities: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/...er-and-stanley.

EDIT: FWIW my personal opinion is that L-N is probably better off without WR. To hold onto that business they would have had to ramp volume up and cost down, and would have been dragged down into the "volume" segment just as Quangsheng entered it and made life hard for everybody else. I think that L-N will be better served in the long term by remaining a "premium" brand, but I'm not a marketing person so this is just a semi-informed opinion.

[John Kananis]

I understand that there were some issues with earlier models (I only have experience with the v3's) - what's the stigma? Is it that they're made in China? If so, I actually give the Chinese some credit on this product - not their usual crap and repeat.

@Jim: Interesting perspective/spin - Let's play devil's advocate for a minute: How many woodcraft employees do you think have no knowledge (or not enough to sell the product) of Lie-Nielsen products? I think there is more to it than that though. From what I've been told (I am no authority and neither are my sources), part of the arrangement was that LN required a dedicated floor-space for display and demonstration. That equates to a lot of square footage devoted to a single line which may not be (most likely isn't) that high profit. Not really a fair demand.

I'm not knocking LN here (I really love that company and its culture - even went to the last open house).

[John Kananis]

Jim alluded to this, but the way the WoodRiver / Lie-Nielsen / Rob Cosman thing went down left a bad taste in a lot of folks' mouths. Very truncated version: Cosman was L-N's Canadian distributed and had a lot of input to product development. For reasons that differ depending on who's telling the story he parted ways with L-N, and then turned around and worked with Quangsheng to design and manufacture the WR planes.

The WoodRiver BD planes and the Lie-Nielsens are both fundamentally Bed Rock clones, so at that level you can't really fault Quangsheng/WR - They both copied a design that has been in the public domain for almost a century. The picture gets a little less pleasant when you look at detailed execution though: There are several modifications that L-N made to the basic BedRock design and that have been copied by Quangsheng/Cosman/WR. L-N didn't patent those when they were first starting, probably because doing so would have cost more than they could afford back then. This FWW piece itemizes the similarities: http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/...er-and-stanley.

EDIT: FWIW my personal opinion is that L-N is probably better off without WR. To hold onto that business they would have had to ramp volume up and cost down, and would have been dragged down into the "volume" segment just as Quangsheng entered it and made life hard for everybody else. I think that L-N will be better served in the long term by remaining a "premium" brand, but I'm not a marketing person so this is just a semi-informed opinion.

Interesting, thanks Patrick, I wasn't aware of the Cosman relationship to Lie-Nielsen. The plot is a bit thicker that I was aware.

[Patrick Chase]

My planes are for woodworking only. I don't collect them as object to be admired and I don't really show them to people. My shop is a pretty solitary place

I bought a Wood River V3 #4. I can't think of a bad thing to say about it. I got it on sale for around $110 and I still feel it is the best new plane for the money. I think all their V3 bench planes are great planes and the prices are very good. Apparently the older WR planes had some issues but I never used any of them. All my other planes are vintage. The WR is prettier than the rest. Mechanically, It's smooth, predictable and precise. I'm not as sold on the block planes, but that's another story.

I think that at list price the value is a bit iffy, particularly on the bevel-up jack.

For example the WR #4 lists for $145. I think that the classic (pre-custom, "East German swimmer special") Veritas #4 at $220 is a better value when you consider its manufacturing quality and the fact that it has a mouth adjustment that's independent of cut depth. At the $110 price that you paid the WR starts to look attractive though.

The WR bevel-up jack lists for $200 which is drastically overpriced IMO, given that the larger (2.25" blade vs 2") and better-made Veritas bevel-up jack is $245 and the newer Stanley is $100.

[James Waldron]

[snip]

Sometimes a heavy plane is an advantage but, for me, that's rarely the case. I much prefer the lighter vintage planes. I'm afraid to try my hand with good wooden plane. I suspect I'd be hooked after one stoke
[snip]

There's nothing quite as satisfying as the snick, snick of planing with a wooden plane with a really sharp blade. Well, one thing: it's even better (and a lot cheaper) if you made that plane yourself. It ain't that hard.

[Patrick Chase]

@Jim: Interesting perspective/spin - Let's play devil's advocate for a minute: How many woodcraft employees do you think have no knowledge (or not enough to sell the product) of Lie-Nielsen products? I think there is more to it than that though. From what I've been told (I am no authority and neither are my sources), part of the arrangement was that LN required a dedicated floor-space for display and demonstration. That equates to a lot of square footage devoted to a single line which may not be (most likely isn't) that high profit. Not really a fair demand.

It's common for premium brands to demand that sort of placement/merchandising as a condition of being sold through mass-marked outlets like Woodcraft, and it happens across basically all industries. Have you ever noticed how Festool's stuff gets dedicated floor space at Woodcraft? That's no accident...

[John Kananis]

It's common for premium brands to demand that sort of placement/merchandising as a condition of being sold through mass-marked outlets like Woodcraft, and it happens across basically all industries. Have you ever noticed how Festool's stuff gets dedicated floor space at Woodcraft? That's no accident...

Sure but I'd like to see the difference in the margins - I would imagine the higher profit items getting the floor space and I can't see Tom paying so high a commission (why should he?).