Source for modern hollow and round molding plane irons?

[Patrick Chase]

Mike, relax, you will be fine. If you haven't looked at this already, it will tell you most of what you need to know:
https://hocktools.wordpress.com/2011...of-tool-steel/

That's exactly what I was referring to in #22 when I suggested Hock's sharpening book, though I didn't realize that Ron had posted that excerpt on his blog. IMO he does a very good job of balancing technical accuracy and readability.

EDIT: Reinforcing a point that both Kees and Steve made previously, molding planes are pretty forgiving. If you don't get optimal results that won't be the end of the world, and might not even be noticeable. You'll do fine. Please ignore my posts about decarb - I was picking Steve's brain about a fairly technical issue that's unlikely to be a huge problem for you.

One think you might want to consider is to procure an inexpensive O1 bar of about the right thickness, cut it into pieces and grind a bevel onto each, and practice heat-treating those before you try your hand with one of those L-N irons. Something like this should do the trick.

[Kees Heiden]

Annealed steel is steel when it is as soft as possible. That is how you buy it. They heat it up above critical temp ( cherry red, non magnetic). Then they let it cool as slowly as possible. So that is the oposite of hardening where you cool as quick as possible with a quench.

[Mike Allen1010]

I finally got around to making the plane bodies/wedges and grinding the 01 blade blanks (which I got from Lie Nielsen) for 3 pair of hollows and rounds - #4,6,8.

Since this is my first attempt, I used scraps of wood I had in the shop. I tried to select pieces that were quarter sawn, but didn't really have too many choices that were the appropriate thickness. I ended up with mostly Cherry and one each of Paduk and walnut. I know those aren't ideal plane woods ( I would've preferred Maple or beech), but this is really just a trial to see if I can make H&R's at all and ultimately to see if they work any better than the old mixed bag of random H&R's I have on hand. I frankly struggle getting the old plane irons sharp and getting them to hold an edge for any worthwhile length of time.

I followed the instructions in a recent Popular Woodworking article. The plans called for a 55 degree bed angle but I screwed up with the protractor in building the jig used to mark out the angles, so these ended up at 60°. I really hope that's not a dealbreaker ?


I decided against trying to heat treat the blades myself because it just seemed too scary and the probability of screw up in getting the right temperature etc. too high for a rookie like me. Based on a recommendation from Steve V. above, I decided to send the blades to "Pete's heat treating" in PA. I think I might have screwed up by grinding the bevel on the irons too thin – I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

They charge a flat rate of $114 for between 4 and 20 blades. Since I only have 6, let me know if anyone else has some blades they would like to include up to the 20 blades maximum? Send me a PM and we can combine into a single shipment. I would like to get these done as soon as possible so don't want to wait too long; however thought I would make the offer for any of my fellow Creekers who might be interested.

After extensive coaching by a bunch of guys here in the cave (thanks Brian, Derek, Ken and everyone else who generously offered advice!), I finally succeeded in uploading larger pictures. For a technically challenged guy like me this is roughly the equivalent splitting the atom – I'm very proud of myself! Just realized this is probably a mixed blessing as it makes my mistake that much easier to see!

All the best, Mike

[Jim Koepke]

I followed the instructions in a recent Popular Woodworking article.

I almost purchased that issue until I saw they were open sided.

I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

Maybe you could make a bunch of shavings and flatten the edge on those blades.

jtk

[Mike Cherry]

Looking good Mike! This is one of those projects that I have on the back burner. I do have a decent chunk of hard maple that might be a decent candidate for a pair of H&R's or two.

[Frederick Skelly]

Very nice Mike! Have you stuck a trial molding yet?

[Alan Schwabacher]

If your older molding planes don't hold an edge well, why not include those blades in with your heat treating shipment?

[Mike Allen1010]

Very nice Mike! Have you stuck a trial molding yet?

Fred and Alan these are both excellent questions that illustrate the depth of my ignorance with all things metal working related.

Fred, I didn't attempt to make a trial pass/cut because I assumed un-heat treated/tempered blades wouldn't work very well. Have absolutely no idea if that's correct or not.

Alan SchwabacherIf your older molding planes don't hold an edge well, why not include those blades in with your heat treating shipment?

Alan, your question also makes perfect sense to me. However, I regard all things tool steel related to have a significant element of vodoo. Unlike other aspects of modern life that to me are empirically quantifiable; woodworking tool steel seems to reside in the netherworld of "some edge tools take/hold a fantastic edge and others don't". I haven't the foggiest reason why that is, nor frankly any interest in understanding why. I just want to identify the "best" steel for the attributes I value most, and gladly buy it. Sadly, I'm unable to understand that calculus on my own and therefore and grateful to rely on the expertise/advice of my betters. Thank goodness we have the benefit of Derek's highly informed opinion based on his rational scientific method, George's historical/Technically informed experience/insight. My only wish is that some day David Weaver will return to the fold. I'm personally the farthest thing from an expert, but I have 100% faith in his evaluation and recommendations.

My H%R plane experiment is highly likely to become a smoking hole in the ground. I promise to share my results, as inglorious as they are likely to be.

All the best, Mike

Reply Reply With Quote

Blog this Post

[Steve Voigt]

I decided against trying to heat treat the blades myself because it just seemed too scary and the probability of screw up in getting the right temperature etc. too high for a rookie like me. Based on a recommendation from Steve V. above, I decided to send the blades to "Pete's heat treating" in PA. I think I might have screwed up by grinding the bevel on the irons too thin – I just read the instructions from Pete's and they said to leave a minimum thickness of .030 inches to prevent warping. I hope they can still harden them and I'll just have to re-grind the bevels?

They charge a flat rate of $114 for between 4 and 20 blades. Since I only have 6, let me know if anyone else has some blades they would like to include up to the 20 blades maximum? Send me a PM and we can combine into a single shipment. I would like to get these done as soon as possible so don't want to wait too long; however thought I would make the offer for any of my fellow Creekers who might be interested.

Mike,

The planes look good. A couple thoughts on the irons.

When I said I liked Peters, I was responding to another post, and I said that I liked them for volume orders, but not for just a few blades. In this particular case, I think there are two reasons that sending out the blades would be sub-optimal.

First, for $114 you can buy yourself a nice torch and everything else you need to heat treat for the rest of your life.

Second and more important: When most people heat treat those type of irons (tapered with long skinny tangs), they just heat treat the bottom couple inches, so most of the tang remains soft. This is good, because if you try heat treating the whole thing, it's going to warp and twist due to its skinny irregular shape and tapered thickness. That is going to make bedding the iron difficult. And that's exactly what will happen if you send the irons out--they will heat treat the whole thing in an oven, and it will warp and twist. Those guys do a nice job of straightening the irons, but it will be very hard to get them straight enough, because of the shape, IMO.

If you are concerned about doing the HT yourself because of safety and liability issues, I totally get that. I think you are more than capable of learning to heat treat, but no one should make light of the potential hazards involved. If that's the case, I recommend you find someone local who can heat treat them with a torch and a bucket. If you can't find someone to do it for free, I would try a local machine shop. In fact, I used to work at the UCSD machine shop, which is in your general area. I could email you their contact info if you need it.

Regardless of how you heat treat them, you definitely don't want them sharp--the edge will decarb badly and may overheat, and warping will be more of a problem. Go back to the grinder (or files) and just put a small flat on the cutting edge.

Concerning your bed angle of 60°: they will work, and they will certainly stop tearout dead in almost anything! You may however find them hard to push; you will probably not be able to take very heavy cuts, and they may be more likely to chatter if everything is not "just so." I would try them and see how you like them. There are certainly plenty of examples of commercially made moulding planes at half pitch (60°).

[Dave Anderson NH]

Mike, I agree with what Steve says.

I would also strongly encourage you to learn to do your own heat treating. Based on the kind of furniture projects you have shown on this forum I have no doubts about your ability to learn a relatively simple process like HT. Acquiring proficiency in HT is significantly simpler than learning the to produce the level of furniture quality you have shown.

As for learning to judge TH-ing color, don't bother except as a double check/sanity check. When tool steels like O-1 and W-1 reach their critical temperature they no longer will attract a magnet. This means that with a rare earth magnet on the end of a screwdriver you can verify you have reached critical temperature. Similarly, a simple bimetal thermometer in your kitchen oven to verify the oven's set temperature and the use of tempering charts available at most sellers of tool steel and you can temper in the kitchen. An important warning here though, if you are using O-1, quench in peanut oil to prevent the smell and marital discord that the use of old motor oil would cause. Believe me when I say that I learned that one the hard way and learned my wife's vocabulary was broader than initially supposed.

There are plenty of threads here on the Neander forum that give very complete process instruction. Go for it, you will find it opens your horizons significantly.

[Tom M King]

Heat treating the irons is a lot easier than what you've done so far.

[James Waldron]

That's exactly what I was referring to in #22 when I suggested Hock's sharpening book, though I didn't realize that Ron had posted that excerpt on his blog. IMO he does a very good job of balancing technical accuracy and readability.

EDIT: Reinforcing a point that both Kees and Steve made previously, molding planes are pretty forgiving. If you don't get optimal results that won't be the end of the world, and might not even be noticeable. You'll do fine. Please ignore my posts about decarb - I was picking Steve's brain about a fairly technical issue that's unlikely to be a huge problem for you.

One think you might want to consider is to procure an inexpensive O1 bar of about the right thickness, cut it into pieces and grind a bevel onto each, and practice heat-treating those before you try your hand with one of those L-N irons. Something like this should do the trick.

Or you could try https://www.onlinemetals.com/merchan...2&top_cat=1354 for the same size O-1 at a little more than half the price. Online Metals is a a division of ThyssenKrupp Materials North America, so not some fly-by-night source. Lots of other choices there, too, so you may want to look around a bit once you get there. I've found them a very good outfit to deal with.

[James Waldron]

Good Lord! $114? If you send them to me, I'll do six blades for free. You pay shipping both ways. That's to harden and temper. O1 can temper in my oven to Rockwell C 62 and down; for these blades I'd suggest you might find RC 58 about right from an ease of sharpening standpoint, although O1 isn't that difficult to sharpen at any hardness.

If you're interested, PM me.

Like most here, I think you should cinch up your girdle and do it yourself. It's really simple and, with a tiny bit of forethought, it's quite safe. But since you seem to wish to consider science a branch of voodoo, so be it. Even from a voodoo perspective, it's as simple as magic gets:

1. Heat the blade up to the magic temperature. To tell if it's reached the magic temperature, test with a magnet for the magic sign. If the magnet sticks to the steel, it isn't hot enough. If it doesn't stick, you've reached the proper temperature. (You were holding the blade with your vice grips, right? Not with your bare hands?)
2. Lower the blade smartly into a can of peanut oil you've thoughtfully placed near where you're heating the blade. Best to lower it straight down, then stir it around after the initial "sizzle" has died down. After it's been in the oil for say three or four minutes, take it out and wipe most of the oil off. Trust me, the oil will not be hot enough to fry your pommes frits. The pommes probably wouldn't taste as good as usual in any case.
3. Send your wife out of the house on an errand of some sort. Be creative. Heat the kitchen oven to 380 degrees F (RC62) to 450 degrees F (RC58), depending on how hard you want your temper to be. When it reaches temperature, put your blade into the oven and hold (for 1/8" thickness) for a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 60 minutes. (I wrap my pieces in aluminum foil with a bit of charcoal to prevent further decarborizing during the heat, but I've never quite believed that it did any substantial good at these lower temperatures. But then again, I'm usually shooting for RC62, with the oven at 380 degrees (F)
4. Remove from the oven, cool to handling temperature, grind to finished shape and sharpen and hone. Cut wood.
   
   Edit: Jeez! I almost forgot the most important part: when your wife gets back and asks what you've been doing with her oven and why the hell you left it on, you have to recite the following magic incantation:
   "It wasn't me. I wasn't there. I didn't do it. I didn't mean to. I couldn't help it. I'll never do it again. I'm sorry. I love you. You're much prettier than your sister."

[Steve Voigt]

Like most here, I think you should cinch up your girdle and do it yourself. It's really simple and, with a tiny bit of forethought, it's quite safe. But since you seem to wish to consider science a branch of voodoo, so be it. Even from a voodoo perspective, it's as simple as magic gets:

1. Heat the blade up to the magic temperature. To tell if it's reached the magic temperature, test with a magnet for the magic sign. If the magnet sticks to the steel, it isn't hot enough. If it doesn't stick, you've reached the proper temperature. (You were holding the blade with your vice grips, right? Not with your bare hands?)

In general I like this description a lot--nice and simple. I'd like to add a couple comments on the specific points.

Lower the blade smartly into a can of peanut oil you've thoughtfully placed near where you're heating the blade. Best to lower it straight down, then stir it around after the initial "sizzle" has died down. After it's been in the oil for say three or four minutes, take it out and wipe most of the oil off. Trust me, the oil will not be hot enough to fry your pommes frits. The pommes probably wouldn't taste as good as usual in any case.

Stirring the part around is generally frowned upon, because it can cause warping. Best to go straight up and down, fairly slowly.
After about 15 seconds, maybe 30 at most for a large bench plane iron, you're done. There is no point in leaving it in for 3 or 4 minutes. The purpose of heat treating is to take the steel from around 1500° to around 800° in the required time interval. For O1, that time interval is about 5 seconds; for W1 it's less than a second. At that cooling rate, the part is surely cool enough to handle in less than 30 seconds.

Heat the kitchen oven to 380 degrees F (RC62) to 450 degrees F (RC58), depending on how hard you want your temper to be. When it reaches temperature, put your blade into the oven and hold (for 1/8" thickness) for a minimum of 30 and a maximum of 60 minutes. (I wrap my pieces in aluminum foil with a bit of charcoal to prevent further decarborizing during the heat, but I've never quite believed that it did any substantial good at these lower temperatures. But then again, I'm usually shooting for RC62, with the oven at 380 degrees (F)

Decarb can only happen at or near the critical temperature, around 1400°. There is no point in wrapping in foil when you are tempering.
If you stick small molding plane irons in an oven by themselves, they will overheat. Even if the thermometer reads accurately, there will be temperature spikes when the heating element or flame comes on. To prevent this, put something on the bottom rack to absorb heat and act as a shield, and put the blades on the top rack. A heavy cast iron pan, is good; even better is to fill it with something like a roast. I'm totally serious. The planemaker Bill Carter said "put it in the oven with the lamb roast" and I thought he was just being cute, but he wasn't. The roast will help a lot to smooth out the temperature fluctuations.
Alternatively, as George has said here many times, an accurate toaster oven is better than a household oven.

[Mike Allen1010]

Steve and Dave,

As usual you recommendations are persuasive. I really appreciate you taking the time to educate me about all the inherent challenges in heat treating molding plane irons. Per your suggestion, I have blunted the edges of the plane irons.

As much as it pains me to say it, I guess inevitably the smartest thing is for me to try and heat treat these myself. I probably should first give my blood type and address to the local fire department. Not at all looking forward to super hot metal things with small tolerances that affect the thing I care the most about – a sharp cutting-edge.

BTW, can I buy the MAAP torch and fireplace blocks at the local BORG, or do I need some kind of specialty retailer?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

Best, Mike