Hard Maple Kitchen Countertop design questions

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'm in the design stage of making a countertop for a (personal) kitchen remodel and have some questions for more experienced folks than I (before I start cutting boards to length, milling, etc)

The dimensions of the finished counter are roughly 9.5' L X 24-26" W. Starting with 8/4 hard maple and planning to have the edge grain up on finished counter. So the thickness of counter will likely be around 1 3/4" and each piece will be about the same in width (depends on how much needs to come off during milling to get square and flat.) I was planning to rip everything down as described and glue it up with a staggered pattern of short pieces (less than 4') like you'd see with hardwood flooring. I'm wondering if there is anything to consider here other than the finished look with this decision. Alternatively I could use full length pieces (no butt joints along length of counter) for both the full width sections of counter to the left and right of the sink.

There will be a large U shaped cut out in the middle/right of the counter for the under-mounted sink. Roughly 5' of open counter to the left of sink and roughly 18'' of open counter to right. The sink sticks out farther (couple inches) than cabs and counter along the its front edge, but there will need to be a smaller width of counter running behind the sink. By my theoretical measurements, it will need to be roughly 4-5" wide, but likely no wider. My main question is how do I plan that transition from full 24" counter width, down to 4-5", then back to full width again on the other side. Do I try and glue this up all as one unit or do I make it in 2 sections with a joint behind sink (not my preference.) This is gonna be a heavy sucker if all one full length piece...will I have a problem moving an 9.5' x 24" countertop that's only connected in the middle by 4-5" x 32" section? I'm concerned that it would be tough to move, but maybe not?

I plan to finish with multiple coats of Waterlox, so making in 2 separate sections then jointing them somehow in place would be problematic in terms of finishing/sealing that joint. I am planning to mill to final dimensions at my house, then move project to shop space elsewhere due to more space, better tables for assembly and better setup for finishing. With that in mind I have to consider the transport of an 9.5' (or two smaller) finished work piece. Not sure what direction to take here, or if I am over-analyzing this step.

So, with all this background, my main question is how to handle the transition behind the sink and advise opinions on the different options. Secondly, if I made it in 2 pieces and had a staggered? joint behind the sink in the narrow section, how would I join them strongly and accurately and how would the finishing of that section (water-prone area) be affected?

I'm also wondering what some methods are for attaching the countertop to the top of the cabinets to account for seasonal movement of the countertop. Any advice in the arena of wood movement would be greatly appreciated.

I can try and include a sketch of my design if my explanation is unclear. Needless to say, I'm new to a lot of this, but want my project to turn out the best that it can.

Thanks for any help!

[Jamie Buxton]

So the piece directly behind the sink is a piece of maple whose cross section is 1.5"x4" or so. Think about trying to break that. Ain't gonna happen.

[Lee Schierer]

You are going to need 3 people to move that just from the weight. If you are worried about the sink opening, screw a piece of scrap across the opening near the front of the opening to the underside of the counter top until you get it sitting on the cabinets. Then remove the piece of scrap and you should be good to go.

[roger wiegand]

I've got a 4' x 9' curly maple island top. I elongated the screw holes in the cabinets and used washer head screws to attach it, giving it the ability to expand and contract by about half an inch. It's heavy enough that it really doesn't want to go anywhere in any event so four screws is plenty to hold it in place. It was built in two halves that I glued together in the kitchen. In your case I'd think about building it in three pieces, left side front, right side front, and strip behind the sink running the full length of the counter then doing the final glue-up and finishing in place.

Mine is finished with just pure tung oil. Every five years or so I plane and scrape the surface to refresh it when it gets stained and too marked up. There's no sink, so I only have to worry about a little water that tcan readily be wiped up during food prep.

[Roger Chandler]

Are you leaving enough area for your faucet, or is that built into the sink? I have remodeled kitchens and built cabinets for them in the past. If it were me, I would make the entire counter top as per your dimensions, and do the cutout for the sink in the kitchen itself, next to the cabinets and using premium blades, using a jigsaw for the corners and a circular saw right up next to the straight areas of the cutout, and on sawhorses for support..... That is provided you feel your skills with those tools are good. I would have two others helping lift it onto the cabinets, with yourself in the middle to watch for twisting/ torquing of that middle section. Should not be hard to do....good luck!

[Phillip Mitchell]

Thanks for the replies. Just to address some questions/concerns...

It would be nice to do a final glue up and finishing in place in the kitchen, but that's not really an option with this project. New cabinets and hardwood flooring are going down in the week preceding the countertop and new sink being installed, and it's likely the kitchen is going to be torn apart and non functional for a week or two. That's already gonna be pushing it with the lady and 2 little kids around, needing access to a sink after a week or two. The finishing is going to need some curing time that I don't really have while it's sitting in the kitchen.

I would like to have natural (mineral oil/beeswax) finish on this maple countertop but my partner, who spends significantly more time in the kitchen than I, doesn't want to worry and upkeep of naturally finished wood countertop. We don't need to cut on it anyway, as we have a nice, big hard maple cutting board already. Waterlox seems popular as a sealer for wood countertops, so I thought I'd finish it with several coats of that. It calls for a 24 hr curing time between coats, which is why I'd like to have the finishing done elsewhere, with plenty of space to be out of the way for a week while curing and re-applying coats.

The faucet is a single hole that will come through the countertop directly behind the sink (in the narrow section mentioned earlier.) I will likely drill that out in place with a forstner bit.

Roger Chandler, I am a carpenter/learning timber framer and am comfortable with a circ saw doing those cuts and had thought about that previously. I think I may combine approaches and do an initial glue-up of the 3 sections that Roger Wiegand recommended, and leaving the ends of the countertop and the sink cutout area a bit long, so that I can then come back and trim to fit the sink. I will probably setup a mock-up with the new sink and scribe/cut the countertop to it once everything is glue-ed together before finishing.

Thanks again for any comments. I'm new at this so all comments are appreciated!

[Adam Herman]

I recently completed a reclaimed 5' x 6' with range bowling ally island project, using the end that has the walnut darts, maple and match booked long leaf pine. we started off with 2 sections of ally 42 wide and about 2 to 2.5 in thick.

i cut the sections and rough sanded in the shop. the 42 in x 6 foot section weighed about 300 lbs. I cut the pieces for the sides of stove and glued them up in place. they were all final cut and ready for edging with 1 x 2.75 walnut. The top would have been much to heavy and large to carry complete up a half flight of stairs, and much too heavy to tip up onto the base. For attachment to our island base, I shimmed to level in many places each of the sections as i glued them up, and used small L brackets inside the cabinets, screwing through the shims. These will provide enough movement and was very simple to execute. consider sealing the back and hidden edges as well to prevent moisture.

Are you going to band around the sink to hide the edge grain ? this area will see a lot of abuse as you wash pots and pans, or set sheet pans up against the wood corners, i would consider a round over here as well.

I don't see a good way to do this without finishing in place. I like rogers idea of the 3 pieces for a seamless look. This will allow a lot of flexibility when placing the sink area, just as i did with my stove cutout.

waterlox was really a deam to work with. we went for 3 coats of original and a coat of low gloss and absolutely love it. It has been done a month or so and looks fantastic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6I...ew?usp=sharing

[Wayne Lomman]

Phillip, as another who has done many kitchens, here is my 2 cents worth:

Make your top in your workshop. It won't break to move it to install it, especially if you put a temporary brace on it like Lee said.

Glue up the 2 pieces either side of the sink first so you can trim the internal ends before final gluing to the back piece. Then finish sand the whole top. Positioning the sink is no problem provided everyone works to the plan - plumbers take note!

Use a 2 pack glue such as urea formaldehyde or epoxy. There is no single pack glue that properly survives wet area use, despite the claims made about Titebond 3 etc. The trick to using 2 pack glue is to have everything set up 100% before you mix the glue. I prefer to use urea formaldehyde as it is water clean up.

Weight won't be much of an issue. Even without the cut out it should only weigh 150 pounds which 2 people can carry easily.

Do all your machining including drilling for the tap hole before you polish it.

Rounding edges is necessary to get the dry film thickness of polish on the edges as polish pulls back from a sharp edge. However, if you want the square edge look, 3/32" radius is all you need as a minimum.

Polish the underside and also inside the tap hole to maintain moisture protection.

As Roger Weigand said, fix it down with washer head screws. However, the screws at the back ie against the wall should be tight with the ones on the front rail in elongated holes to allow for movement. This means the top does not move in relation to the splash back/tiles etc but can still move with seasonal variation.

Cheers

Wayne

[Mel Fulks]

It's hard to glue up narrow pieces . We made some oak bench top type things for US government ,and management tried to run the pieces on moulder then glue them. That did not work well and the tops were plagued with open end joints. On subsequent batches I dressed 8/4 oak using jointer and planer then stack glued. Resawed the stacks ,faced and planed,carefully jointed and glued. They turned out well and had no open ends,Uncle Sam said they were the best ones they had ever gotten. If I understand you right that method would give you the grain orientation you want.

[Wayne Lomman]

In addition to my comments above, simple butt joints work well provided the glue is structural ie epoxy or urea formaldehyde. You get a better bond if the faces to be glued are either a high quality sawn finish or else accurately sanded. A glossy planed surface is not great for bonding. This way, narrow pieces can be joined if you want to. As an example, structural laminated timber beams are butt joined narrow strips (not LVL - that is plywood technology).

[Phillip Mitchell]

Checking back on this thread after a while. I appreciate the new replies.

I've made some progress with the counter top. Tomorrow I will do the last stage of glueing (finally!) I glued it up in mostly full length, but narrower sections for a handful of reasons. First, there's no way I (or even 2 people together) could glue and position and clamp all the joints in this countertop in one round. Not enough time before the glue starts to set so I have it glued up in 5 different sections currently. Secondly, I wanted a quick and easy way to bring each stage of glue-up to the same thickness so I went with widths that would fit in the planer after glue-up. Today I got everything the exact same thickness and staged everything for a final glue up that will be the 5 sections coming together as 1, which is a lot less glueing in the final stage than what I was originally thinking. It's taken me a lot longer, but I think it's worth it to do it this way.

The hardest part of glueing up this sort of thing was the alignment of the butt joints once the glue was on. It was a challenge to keep each butt joint (and some edge joints at times) aligned once some clamping pressure was applied. This was easily solved by just planing it out until everything was flat, and I really only lost 1/8" at most to that problem. It made me think twice about some sort of alignment or indexing tool the next time I do something like this though (biscuit jointer, dowel, etc.) Live and learn.

I also had some challenges figuring out a way to find a flat surface nearly 12' long to glue this up on. Pushing a couple of work benches together and some excessive shimming got me close enough finally.

I have decided to band the outside edges and the sink cutout with some mahogany that will be 3/4" thick, which will help me with my overhang past the cabinet doors. I think it will look nice as well.

Still can't decide if I want a round over or a chamfer on the edges. Whichever one it is will be pretty slight, less than 1/4" likely.

Any tips on finishing would be appreciated, although this may not be the proper forum for this. I plan to sand to 220 minimum and apply a sanding sealer/shellac type product first, followed by several coats of Waterlox Original.

[Wayne Lomman]

Phillip, it's good that things are progressing. With your finishing, I would not recommend the sanding sealer/shellac as a first coat. Stick with the Waterlox Original throughout and you will get a better result. The systems info on the Waterlox website is well worth a read before you start. Cheers

[Jerry Miner]

Phillip-- Be careful about "banding the sink cut-out." I would advise against introducing any cross-grain banding that will not accommodate wood movement. Risky at best, potentially disastrous.

[Phillip Mitchell]

OK, thanks for the replies. I read the Waterlox info on their site, which was very informative. Thanks Wayne. I think I will just use several coats (3-4) of the Original.

Jerry, thank you for your comment about keeping wood movement in mind. For some reason I wasn't thinking about that. My main thought was about the end grain (exposed at the far left end of the top and in each side of the sink cutout) soaking up the Waterlox in a different way than the top. I also thought about it potentially soaking up water (from the sink) during heavy sink/dish use, but maybe that's not a great concern with 4 coats of Waterlox on it?

So my thought about banding came up for that reason, and also because I need a little (1/2") more depth out of the top to overhang the drawer fronts, which I didn't realize at first come flush with the top of the cabinet frame itself. Thinking about it now, I can see that if the top decided to expand or shrink seasonally, then the banding (which I planned to miter at the corners, and glue on) would be a major hindrance to that and could cause damage to the banding joints or the top itself or both.

I think I may just go with a strip of mahogany along the front edge of the countertop to give me the correct overhang, but leave the end grain exposed to allow for that movement. Thanks again for the warning.