Split top square dogs- do they really need to be so long?

[Malcolm Schweizer]

"Do your dogs hang low, do they wobble to and fro..."

I am still undecided on round or square dogs, but this thread is specific to square dogs- Benchcrafted's plans have them at almost 7" for a 4" top. I realize part of that is to get the spring to sit at some magical angle, but do they really need to be that long? I would prefer them to be almost flush to the bottom and I just push them up with my finger. I see no need to make them so long. Would shortening them and in turn making the spring a little shorter really be a big issue? Is there some other reason for the length?

My my top will be cut to 4.75" with hopes of a 4.5" finished thickness. I was going to make the dogs 5" so they just barely protrude below the bench. I will have a shelf just below the top and low-hanging dogs interfere with tools I would be placing there.

[Karl Andersson]

shortening the length limits the holding height of the dogs - not an issue if you'll only use the bench for stock prep/ planing where you only need to grip 1/4-1 inch up, but I've had to use mine extended up to 3 inches for some jobs holding moulded edges, irregularly shaped wood, etc.. You certainly can extend the dogs up more than the extra length (so the dog end is somewhere inside the dog hole) but at some point it would risk becoming a lever in the bench top if raised too high. Mine have about an extra 3" past the bench thickness - since I only use two, they really don't get in the way
Karl

[Pat Barry]

Looking at the BC design I think you could certainly use the concept and trim some length without much trouble but they do have a very nice design. For example, right at the bottom of the dog where the spring piece is attached to the dog - right there you could trim off a pretty good amount and not have any problems. You could likewise trim some length from the section where the spring wood operates and save another chunk of length. I think even the top head could be trimmed back a bit.

[Malcolm Schweizer]

shortening the length limits the holding height of the dogs - not an issue if you'll only use the bench for stock prep/ planing where you only need to grip 1/4-1 inch up, but I've had to use mine extended up to 3 inches for some jobs holding moulded edges, irregularly shaped wood, etc.. You certainly can extend the dogs up more than the extra length (so the dog end is somewhere inside the dog hole) but at some point it would risk becoming a lever in the bench top if raised too high. Mine have about an extra 3" past the bench thickness - since I only use two, they really don't get in the way
Karl

I missed the elephant in the room. You are right. I literally slapped my forehead and went "D'oh" at the realization. For me, I doubt I will need more than 1" height, and if I did, I could make a few long ones to pop in when needed.

By the way Karl, did you do that carving in your avatar? That's beautiful. One thing I really look forward to with this new bench is being better able to clamp carving pieces.

[Robert Hazelwood]

I just finished making a pair of these last night, to the 6-5/8" length in the BC design. It's a nice design and I don't foresee any issues with the extra length, even in my 3" top. However I do think they will work if made to a 5" length. I would just take the length out of the section between the wider head up top and the angled surface where the spring attaches (bring those two sections closer together) and trim the spring length to match. That should keep all of the angles the same, and you will just lose some vertical capacity as Karl mentioned.

[Jim Koepke]

I was going to make the dogs 5" so they just barely protrude below the bench. I will have a shelf just below the top and low-hanging dogs interfere with tools I would be placing there.

Will you be using holdfasts? Your shelf will need to be far enough below the top so a holdfast doesn't hit any tools (your tallest plane tote?) placed on it.

My experience with my round dogs is shavings and sawdust tends to fall into the dog holes and making the dogs a bit resistant to popping up. A tap with a mallet or piece of scrap usually brings them right to attention. You will want enough dog below the top to be able to raise them to useful height with a tap on the bottom.

jtk

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Will you be using holdfasts? Your shelf will need to be far enough below the top so a holdfast doesn't hit any tools (your tallest plane tote?) placed on it.

My experience with my round dogs is shavings and sawdust tends to fall into the dog holes and making the dogs a bit resistant to popping up. A tap with a mallet or piece of scrap usually brings them right to attention. You will want enough dog below the top to be able to raise them to useful height with a tap on the bottom.


jtk

Sound advise! I am actually making the shelf removable and adjustable. Also it will be only 1/2 the bench width so I still have room below even with the shelf in place. I also got the Veritas holdfast with the short shaft for when I need to hold something and don't want to move stuff.

[Karl Andersson]

About the avatar, yes Malcolm, I did the carving- it's a "jewelry hanging board" that I made for my wife a few years ago; I think I posted about it in a "what did you make for Christmas this year" post. There are more pictures in the gallery on my profile if you're interested - I use it as an avatar because it kinda looks like me.

A bench does help with some carving workholding- especially if you're doing decorative stuff on furniture components. For items that are less planar/ rectangular (i.e. a relief carving such as the avatar), holdfasts can be more help than dogs and a vise, but it all depends on the workpiece. Certainly the vise and dogs can be used to hold jigs or supports that hold the carving if they can't grip the carving itself.
Karl

[Malcolm Schweizer]

Nice work, Karl. Actually the bench will have a pattern maker's vise off one end, and my current bench has the worst-racking vises ever created by mankind, and a top so thin it has to be measured with a micrometer. Ok, not that bad, but this bench is going to be such an improvement and I am looking forward to exploring carving more.

[Mike Holbrook]

My small Hammer bench came with square dog holes and metal dogs. I just added round holes too. I wanted to be able to use Veritas Planing Stops, also Surface Clamps, Hold Downs, Fast Action Hold Downs, Bench Blades, Parf Dogs, Prairie Dogs, Round Bench Dogs with muzzles, Bench Anchors....

I added 3/4" holes, I may add 20mm holes too as there are a full range of Qwas Dogs that fit 20mm as do all the Festool clamping devices and stops.

It seems to me the first thing to do is decide what stops, hold downs, clamps....you have or may want to use in future projects. If all you ever plan to use are square dogs which you plan to make then all you have to worry about is height. I plan to use the Veritas Planing stops for most of the work I do but I wanted to be able to use a few other Veritas stops/clamps as well, all of which use round holes. I have a few Festool tools and a MFT table with a few of the clamps etc. for it, still not sure if I want to be able to move those devices between both surfaces or not.

[Randy Karst]

I am a little late on this thread but agree with Karl based on my experience. I just made a set for an existing bench (backward engineered) and mine ended up 7.25" in length. On my bench, with the dog flush on the bottom, there is only 2.5" of dog above the bench, if they were much shorter, they would be less useful and slightly more awkward to locate (by feel) and popup when needed.