One for the cabinet guys...

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I've been very happy with my MiniMax equipment. One of the things I really like about their configurations is that they are easier to buy...there's not a lot of decisions to make about billions of options because of how they package them. That said, their competitors also offer some mighty fine machines, too. In general, if you can fine "late model used", you may get a nice deal. But Erik is correct, this class of machine does hold it's value well. So buying new doesn't hurt you too much and if your needs change, there is indeed a strong market to permit you to re-tool.

[Martin Wasner]

I've tried to add this response a couple of times now, once my phone freaked out, the other I accidentally closed the browser...


On the subject of a widebelt, I started with a drum sander. I ran it for a year or two before I got my first widebelt. It was a single head, 36" Timesavers Speedsander. For the money, it was a good machine and light years ahead of the drum sander. A total piece of junk, but a good value. I don't know if that makes sense or not. I ran that for probably seven years before I got my current unit. I currently have an Apex 42" dual head widebelt. I put a bit over 50 hours on it the first year I had it. I figure it's about four times faster than my old widebelt, not including the better scratch and less time finish sanding on the back end. The four times faster I figure from a higher feed rate, and I'm just making one pass per face, whereas with the old sander I was making three passes per face. So if it's four times faster, and we put 50 hours on it last year, that's 100 man hours. One person feeding, the other catching and stacking on the back side. Had that been my old unit, that would've been 400 hours. So 300 hours saved. If your employees are costing you $25/hr, (which is likely low), you're going to spend another $7500 just on labor. So the payback isn't as long as you'd think on a $40k machine. BUT, you're up a creek on that since you don't have the power to run it. Mine pulls 155 amps on 208V at full load. The moral of the story there is the jump from the old to the new widebelt wasn't as big as the jump from the drum sander to the first widebelt. I don't remember what I paid for that first widebelt, but I want to say it was about $5500, it was used and it pretty good shape. I sold it for $500 less than what I purchased it for. That machine owed me nothing.


Where to look for equipment? I troll Craigslist, a few auction sites like IRS and Machinerymax. A couple of local auction sites as well. Then there's dealers. Most are on one network, so you'll see the same equipment listed in multiple places. The classifieds at Woodweb is usually a good source too. Good deals show up all the time, keeping enough capital on hand for new toys is a must in my book. When I've got cash to burn I spend a bit of time probably every day looking for good dealsl

I'm never really looking for anything specific. I try to keep cash on hand, and if a good deal pops up on something I need or could use in the future, I'll buy it. Right now I've got a Whirlwind popup saw with a 12' Tigerstop sitting in storage because it was a good deal and I don't have anywhere to put it currently. A 20hp bag house sitting outside on it's side waiting for me to put up a new building. I've got a forklift sitting doing nothing since there's no room in the shop for it either. A couple of weeks ago I almost bought a Northfield #4 tablesaw that I also have nowhere to put. It was a little rough looking, but for the $550 it went for it was hard to walk away from. A couple of weeks ago I picked up another SAC shaper, it's just sitting doing nothing because I don't have enough juice left in the box to run the poor thing. Which is sad, because it's freakin' mint! I try to reinvest as much as possible.

Cabinetry is a really tough business to go into half assed. I've got $200k invested into a bit over $300k, (replacement cost), in tooling. I could blow another $200k tomorrow before lunch if that kind of money fell in my lap. I started with a tablesaw, a planer, a jointer, and a chop box. It's an uphill battle, (I'm nowhere near the top btw), to making things productive, effective, and efficient. It's baby steps, and I get that, but it's tough to make money if you're wasting time with inferior equipment.

Spend money wisely. I have a lot of cheap crap that I bought brand new that I am slowly phasing out. Things that I could've bought used and gotten a much better value for my money. I catch hell for this, (again), but the lower end green or yellow tools are just too expensive for what they are in a production environment. The more exposed to good expensive tools that I am, the more I realize what a bargain they are when you live from what they produce. But everyone has to start somewhere and I know what it's like having very limited funds to start out with.

[Mike Jungers]

Martin, your post is a gold mine for a guy like me and I appreciate you putting in the time to do so. I'll start at the end of your post and work backwards.

I agree that cheap tools are almost always more expensive in the long run. My Festool cases stand taller than the three of us combined, and with what they've made me I could buy them all again. We just had a bulk trash collection day in my neighborhood, and I pulled my old horrible Makita compound slider out from behind the garage where it was rusting and left it for the scrappers. With a grin on my face!

I spent some time over the weekend tidying up some Quickbooks stuff from finishing my taxes last week and I decided to run a few reports to look at the woodworking/ cabinetry parts of the projects I do. I could stand to be a little better with breaking out jobs costs, but I was able to get pretty solid numbers for the last two year's projects. Two things stand out; the "standard" cabinetry I build varies from breaking even to about 10%, and all the miscellaneous shelves and frames and such are huge winners. The best jobs have both cabinets and weird stuff, where I really benefit from having one finishing process for everything. My long winded point is that it's now clear that I AM half-assed into cabinetry, but it's a gateway to the really good work for a net gain. A few of my conclusions, subject to change:

• I don't do the kind of volume necessary to profit from quantum leap cabinetry equipment, such as straight line rip saws and line boring rigs.
• I need to make sure I stay in my lane and keep my in-house cabinetry simple and maybe sub out a little more during busy times.
• The more disruptive my designs would be for a larger shop to build, the better off I do.
• Continue to push my learning curve with the one-off stuff. The profits are there and it's become what I'm known for.
• Look for equipment that's accurate and gives quality results, with high production capability being a minor consideration.

The budget this year looks like I can upgrade the shop equipment and also either expand the shop or replace a job trailer with a new van. If I do get to the expansion first, and have any money left, I would love to start collecting deals like you're getting. I will admit to a few times of overbuying for my needs and killing my ROI right from day one, but my shrunken account balance after making the moves I want should help keep me in check. It sure sounds like fun though and the way to go if you have an eye towards expanding!

Thank you for the info on where to look for used equipment. I've been looking at woodweb and a few local auction sites and will take a look at the others you mentioned.

I don't know diddly about drums or wide belts, so for this round of upgrades I'm focusing on a jointer and planer. There's no doubt though that it would be a huge savings to move up from 100% RO sanding like I do now. I have looked at some of the used equipment online to get familiar with brands, configurations, price and such but I couldn't tell you why two machines the same size and vintage can be $20k apart. There's a lot more learning for me to do but I can say the thought of even going through the first grit or two before switching over to RO sounds wonderful and if I can find a machine that can give decent results for under say $8k and 60 amps it would get slotted to #3 on my To Get list. That sounds like a quantum jump up that could pay for itself if I can get some years out of it, or even if it saves some aggravation. If there are any machines that are known winners and fit the bill, I'm all ears.

Thank again Martin and all you guys for the help.

Mike

[Mike Jungers]

Thanks Jim. If I go with new equipment, the minimax is on my short list. It's a very short list! I have suspected that like you said the resale value would be good if I needed to increase capacity down the road. I think it's going to come down to what's available on the used market when I'm ready to buy as I do think the value is there with the new machine.

So, how fast IS the changeover, and are there any things that you wish were different? The one thing I know I would be looking into are the Aigner table extensions, but I'll probably be looking at those anyway unless I land an aircraft carrier of a used jointer.

Mike

[Larry Edgerton]

A thought......

A precision planer with a good head will cut down on sanding immensely. I switched from a Powermatic 180 with a Byrd to the SCM with the Tersa and my sanding time was cut in half, and my joinery was much more accurate as my stock was always perfect. If I had to choose between a good planer/no sander, and a sander/marginal planer I would go with the better planer first. At the moment I do not have a wide belt, but with the finish I get off of my planer there is very little sanding, a couple of light passes is all that is required if the final pass was done at 16fpm.

Martin

You did not like the Speedsander? Just curious. There are not many sanders that I can run at my current and final location because of the power lines coming in. Single phase, and I was advised that about 25hp is the max I could get by with without paying to upgrade 1.3 miles of line, @$28k. Kinda sucks, but where I live/work is awesome!

[Joe Calhoon]

Agree with Larry. We had a straight knife SCM that required almost 1/16" removal after the knives got a little dull. This prompted our 3 head wide belt as we were doing a lot of doors, cabinets and millwork at the time. After getting our Tersa head jointer, planer, S4S and more precise joinery our removal went to 0.3 - 0.4mm about 1/64" or so each side. 0.5mm for edge glue ups These big sanders can be hard on the electric bill. A light 2 head would have worked fine and a lot less expense. If I ever get into a retirement shop a 15HP one head will do me fine.

Good idea not to be a cabinet only shop. As a small shop you don't want to compete against machines. Develop good relations with architects, designers and homeowners to promote your unique products. That will help keep you from getting hammered on price and delivery schedules.

[Larry Edgerton]

If I ever get into a retirement shop a 15HP one head will do me fine.

Good idea not to be a cabinet only shop. As a small shop you don't want to compete against machines. Develop good relations with architects, designers and homeowners to promote your unique products. That will help keep you from getting hammered on price and delivery schedules.

My shop is sort of a retirement shop Joe, but I have three ex wives so I will never totally retire. Couldn't anyway, not in my nature. And thanks for your thoughts on pattern heads. Appreciated.

That last paragraph I absolutely agree with. I purposely design stuff that the production shops can't do just to get rid of the low ball competition. Take the time to point out your strengths and the things that make your product better. For one example, as dovetails are so common now I carry a sample of a Pin and Cresent joint with me on presentations to offer something different. Hate doing them but it justifies a higher cost. Architects and designers use those kinds of things to sell the job, and no one else wants to do them. Round work has been a good one for me as well, because again, the production shops, and a lot of custom shops do not want to do it.

[Martin Wasner]

Martin

You did not like the Speedsander? Just curious. There are not many sanders that I can run at my current and final location because of the power lines coming in. Single phase, and I was advised that about 25hp is the max I could get by with without paying to upgrade 1.3 miles of line, @$28k. Kinda sucks, but where I live/work is awesome!

For what it is, it's a great value. But, you have to remember that it's a very lightly built machine and under powered. I wouldn't go a different route in hindsight, but it was a stepping stone for me and I knew that from the get go. I just outgrew it. You just can't ask much from a sub $10k machine new.

I too had limited juice at my original location. Even where I am currently I had to bring another 200 amp service into the building to feed the new beast. It's basically wired straight to the pole.

Another reason I'm planning on bringing in 600amps of 480v into my new shop. Running out of juice stinks.

[Martin Wasner]

I do regret not getting a three head sander. We push the abrasives pretty hard, and the operating cost is pretty ridiculous. No jokes, $.55-.65 per minute. It's still cheaper than swapping belts and making two more passes, but with a little more outlay of capital I wouldn't be hammering the belts nearly as hard.

[Jim Becker]

So, how fast IS the changeover, and are there any things that you wish were different? The one thing I know I would be looking into are the Aigner table extensions, but I'll probably be looking at those anyway unless I land an aircraft carrier of a used jointer.

Changeover for me is about...a minute...and that's with hand-cranking and taking my time. I think that sometimes folks who don't own J/P combos "overemphasize" changeover activity which really isn't long and isn't necessarily obtrusive if you 1) plan workflow and 2) use it to your advantage for pacing. Yes, it's momentarily "inconvenient" when you forget that one piece or make a mistake and have to replace a component farther on within a project workflow, but for a small pro shop or a hobbyist like me, it's of little consequence in the long run. The economy (money and space) of having both a wide jointer and thicknesser in one package isn't a horrible thing for "folks like us", IMHO.

I haven't generally felt the need for table extensions, largely because the only time something really long passes over the jointer is for skimming rough stock so I can ascertain color/grain. I typically beak material down to oversize lengths for project components and rarely is something more than five feet. But that's me. Folks who regularly need to prepare longer stock will benefit from extra support. The Aigner stuff is really nice...but also really pricy. You can (in your copious free time) construct something similar if you want to.

[thomas prusak]

If you have the room and I suspect you do, buy a separate planer and jointer. Skip the combo machines. Anything a combo machine does well, separate machines do better. I made the combo machine mistake and have regretted it ever since. I also think a small wide belt sander is much better for your purposes than a bigger drum sander.

[Mike Jungers]

Just in case anyone's interested, I thought I'd update this thread from last year to let you guys know what I've learned since my last post.

First: Once again, I'm reminded of the foolishness of thinking I can fully predict what our customers want. What had started as a demand for occasional cabinetry pieces for our remodeling jobs has flipped into people contacting us to remodel specifically because of our cabinetry. We've gone from 5-8 boxes for a bar to 18-20 boxes for small kitchens, with the largest job having 34 boxes and 52 doors, counting applied doors. I sure didn't see this demand coming and it wouldn't have been possible to meet without...

Two: Mozaik!!!! Again, Mozaik!!!! I've been a long time user of Sketchup so when I found out Mozaik is scalable, can run a CNC someday, and can display 3D in Sketchup i signed up for the three month trial and learned the program designing an upcoming job. I would recommend avoiding that scenario but a week's worth of late nights and I had a completed design. Just the material savings from optimizing paid for the software. I cannot stress what a game changer it has been. So with cut lists and optimized plywood designs in hand it was time to wring out every ounce of efficiency I could.

Three: I picked up an Incra mitre gauge that telescopes out to 40-something inches. This is no Tigerstop for sure but working from a cutlist where the pieces are arranged by decreasing length, cutting frames flat out flew. I think we cut something like 200 frame and door pieces in a couple hours with me on the saw and a helper marking and stacking the pieces. I cannot imagine a faster table saw or mitre saw based system that doesn't use automation.

Four: I went to IWF in Atlanta and got schooled. Literally, I went to two of their seminars, and spent three days asking gradually less stupid questions of the reps. I wound up buying a couple door drying racks on wheels, a SurfPrep 3 x 4 for sealer sanding, and a CAT air assist airless rig. I would have bought more tooling but my truck was broken into in a parking garage and I got cleaned out pretty good. Next time I go I'll rent a KIA.

Five: I worked out a deal with a local wood supplier to use his single head wide belt. We take all our frames and doors and play catch for a couple hours and he charges us next to nothing. I think if at all possible we will wait till we move to a shop with three phase and try to find a decent two head widebelt. Sanding is still our biggest time suck for now.

Six: I put off buying a large jointer for now, bought the big Festool track saw to go with it's little brother, and gently steer customers away from wood more than two inches thick to avoid face jointing. I won't get away with this forever but it bought us some time.

Mainly what I've learned is that I have a ton more to learn. I'm coming around to the idea that if the cabinet side of things keep growing I'm going to skip over high end manual equipment where possible and move towards CNC. What's pushing this is the now obvious realization that the skill set my carpenters have doesn't translate to the shop environment very well and I can hardly ask them to take a pay cut to help out with shop work. It's wound up being me and my cheapest helper who is quickly getting good. We can fly cutting carcass parts off the optimized print-outs, but then it's dados and shelf pin holes that drag down the pace and invite errors. I'm at square one on the CNC learning curve but I'm hoping to get to Vegas to ask more stupid questions of the CNC reps and modern fastener suppliers.

I'm hoping this year to find a finisher who doesn't mind painting or a painter who I (and my finishes rep) can train to finish cabinets. i don't have high hopes but it's worth trying. In the meantime I'm subbing out as much finishing as I can get done on schedule but that's getting harder to accomplish.

And that brings this thread up to date! I would love to hear any thoughts, suggestions, or criticisms.

Mike