Member
David Weaver has a couple of interesting videos on youtube on making a frame saw. If you have a space then bandsaw is hard to beat though and if you are mostly handtooler then I do not see a need for any of the bandsaws that are over $1K
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1GHQwYoux0
Member
In the movie we made about spinet harpsichord and violin making in the 18th. C.,we used an original veneer saw to saw the thin leaves of cypress to line the interior of the spinet with. Yes,the ORIGINAL spinet we copied had cypress veneer on the inside. Seems like an unusual choice of wood! The original was an English spinet. The cypress veneer had to have grown in Italy or Spain. They used it for boats and coffins most commonly. Flamenco guitars have Mediterranean cypress backs and sides. It is not at all an exciting wood to look at. Light and strong,though,and rot resistant.
The old veneer saw had a great blade about 3" wide,and very thin. It has been since 1974,but I'd guess from memory that it was no thicker than .030" thick. About 3 or 4 teeth per inch. Heavy frame,capable of holding the blade in high tension. It was very similar to the veneer saw seen in Diderot,which I believe Warren showed several posts back.
We accurately sawed several leaves of veneer 1/8" thick with the old saw,which happened to still be quite sharp. When planed smooth,this produced veneer about 1/16" thick,as was usual in the 18th. C..
Last edited by george wilson; 04-13-2016 at 10:20 AM.
Contributor
The fellow in this article doesn't really care for framesaws, especially for veneer work
Member
I've seen that article before. Seems rather biased and unsubstantial. It's aim is just to cast doubt and reinterpret things through the eyes of the writer, rather than actually getting at any kind of historical truth.Originally Posted by Pat Barry
Contributor
Pat,thanks for posting that. I agree with Luke, the guy's conclusion seems to be 'this ain't easy'. The nameless workmen in the drawing knew it took skill and developed it.
Contributor
No doubt a bandsaw is the best choice for resawing, unless you only need to do a small amount in which case why not just use a ripsaw. The framesaw seems to be relatively unmanageable (I'm sure this will create feedback) as I was watching Roy Underhill try to use one just this last weekend. It looked to be a very clumsy tool. Now, obviously I don't have one but I do feel the author of the article had some basis for his conclusions including the backing of Popular Woodworking magazine.
Contributor
It makes the tool more manageable to have two folks to use it. My previous comment was with regard to a single user.
+1 to what Warren said. You can establish the kerf with a back saw, but to make the cut you NEED a longer saw plate.
I've gone down this path of making bow saws for re-sawing and have never had much luck getting a straight cut. I've had better results with 28" , 4 PPI rip saw, but those are hard to find. If you want to go the handsaw route, a big frame saw is the way to go. Shannon has several blog posts about building/using several frame saws and should be good reference for details/sources.
Best, Mike
Member
First of all,that saw repro in the article referred to in post #18,is WAYYYY totally too light in the frame. I can't comment on the blade since I can't see it well. But,Marcus and I sawed our veneer on one camera take with no rehearsals. We had never used that veneer saw before. BUT WE KNOW HOW TO SAW. We did not even bother to make saw cuts to start the big teeth in.
I find it rather strange that a person would make a saw totally too light(and,who knows what the blade was like,or how the teeth were formed,filed up,etc.,etc.) and then COMPLAIN about its performance.
Look up our film on youtube by Googling George Wilson harpsichord. It is in 6 parts. See if it looks to you like we are having any trouble with the saw. The original saw cut perfectly accurate and quickly advanced through the wood. They knew how to make saws in the 18th. C.. And,we were fortunate enough to have a great example to use in the film.
I wish certain magazines would stop letting half baked hobby level workmen do their articles. It would help if they had an experienced craftsman as editor. Most often the editor is a business man,trying to put out magazines to sell,getting articles from hobbyists who WORK CHEAP and do it mostly because they like to see their NAME IN PRINT. These writers soon begin to be seen as authorities,but may NOT BE SO. I got pretty aggravated years ago with the "Home Shop Machinist" for putting out articles full of blatant errors and untruths in their articles. When I wrote to the editor,he replied that "He had not labored in the vineyard!" That was really the last straw and I cancelled my subscription. Not the last subscription I have canceled,either!!!!!
As for Diderot,the pictures are artist's interpretations of workers. Based upon things looking artistic rather than necessarily correct. And,there is a lot of misinformation in Diderot since craftsmen did not want to give up their trade secrets,and many of them thought Diderot was a spy,or some kind of a nut. No one EVER before had been concerned about how craftsmen worked. In the harpsichord section,there are pictures totally WRONG about how their soundboards are braced.
To remark about Diderot's illustrations,you have to have a decent background on how things were done in the 18th. C.. Artists were primarily concerned with making people look graceful,and,in many cases look educated. Their subjects were most often depicted standing in a ballet position. Women or girls of the wealthy were often shown with their feet in the 3rd. ballet position. This is with the heel of one foot placed in the center of the other foot,which is turned sideways from the position of the body. This was to show that they were educated in the arts. Often their subjects(who were most often wealthy),were painted holding a book,or with a telescope,etc. to show that they were educated. Since artists were used to depicting their subjects looking thus,it spilled over into Diderot. Artists were not USED to depicting poor,ragged,working class workmen,working in shacks filled with detritus of all kinds.
Their shops in Diderot are depicted spotlessly clean,and inside an elaborate stone building. Another artist's effort to make his subjects look good since that is what they were used to doing.
I might add,for no good reason,that COUNTRY gentlemen,English ones in particular,(who had a lot of money,but did not wish to try looking sophisticated),often had themselves painted holding a gun,to show that they were sportsmen. I recall one really great painting of a country gentleman with his whole pack of beagles. There were a LOT of these dogs in the VERY LARGE painting,and every one of them had a little banner in front of them showing their names! Clearly,his dogs were the most important thing in this gentleman's life!
So,take Diderot with a grain of salt. Maybe a LARGE CHUNK of SALT!!!!There are definitely things worth seeing in Diderot. A lot of tools,for example. But,remember the things I have just written before you make any conclusions.
Last edited by george wilson; 04-13-2016 at 3:39 PM.
Member
Basically a bow saw, the blade is in line with the frame. A frame saw, the blade is perpendicular to the frame. With a frame saw, you can cut any length board.
In the video, they are using a larger two man saw. You can make a shorter saw to use by yourself. When used with a kerfing plane, it is actually very easy to saw straight. If you find the book "The Unplugged Workshop" by Tom Fidgen, he talks about the saw and plane. It is a good read.
Contributor
I found George's you tube video. Here is a link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K48F...&nohtml5=FalseFirst of all,that saw repro in the article referred to in post #18,is WAYYYY totally too light in the frame. I can't comment on the blade since I can't see it well. But,Marcus and I sawed our veneer on one camera take with no rehearsals. We had never used that veneer saw before. BUT WE KNOW HOW TO SAW. We did not even bother to make saw cuts to start the big teeth in.
I find it rather strange that a person would make a saw totally too light(and,who knows what the blade was like,or how the teeth were formed,filed up,etc.,etc.) and then COMPLAIN about its performance.
Look up our film on youtube by Googling George Wilson harpsichord. It is in 6 parts. See if it looks to you like we are having any trouble with the saw. The original saw cut perfectly accurate and quickly advanced through the wood. They knew how to make saws in the 18th. C.. And,we were fortunate enough to have a great example to use in the film.
I wish certain magazines would stop letting half baked hobby level workmen do their articles. It would help if they had an experienced craftsman as editor. Most often the editor is a business man,trying to put out magazines to sell,getting articles from hobbyists who WORK CHEAP and do it mostly because they like to see their NAME IN PRINT. These writers soon begin to be seen as authorities,but may NOT BE SO. I got pretty aggravated years ago with the "Home Shop Machinist" for putting out articles full of blatant errors and untruths in their articles. When I wrote to the editor,he replied that "He had not labored in the vineyard!" That was really the last straw and I cancelled my subscription. Not the last subscription I have canceled,either!!!!!
As for Diderot,the pictures are artist's interpretations of workers. Based upon things looking artistic rather than necessarily correct. And,there is a lot of misinformation in Diderot since craftsmen did not want to give up their trade secrets,and many of them thought Diderot was a spy,or some kind of a nut. No one EVER before had been concerned about how craftsmen worked. In the harpsichord section,there are pictures totally WRONG about how their soundboards are braced.
To remark about Diderot's illustrations,you have to have a decent background on how things were done in the 18th. C.. Artists were primarily concerned with making people look graceful,and,in many cases look educated. Their subjects were most often depicted standing in a ballet position. Women or girls of the wealthy were often shown with their feet in the 3rd. ballet position. This is with the heel of one foot placed in the center of the other foot,which is turned sideways from the position of the body. This was to show that they were educated in the arts. Often their subjects(who were most often wealthy),were painted holding a book,or with a telescope,etc. to show that they were educated. Since artists were used to depicting their subjects looking thus,it spilled over into Diderot. Artists were not USED to depicting poor,ragged,working class workmen,working in shacks filled with detritus of all kinds.
Their shops in Diderot are depicted spotlessly clean,and inside an elaborate stone building. Another artist's effort to make his subjects look good since that is what they were used to doing.
I might add,for no good reason,that COUNTRY gentlemen,English ones in particular,(who had a lot of money,but did not wish to try looking sophisticated),often had themselves painted holding a gun,to show that they were sportsmen. I recall one really great painting of a country gentleman with his whole pack of beagles. There were a LOT of these dogs in the VERY LARGE painting,and every one of them had a little banner in front of them showing their names! Clearly,his dogs were the most important thing in this gentleman's life!
So,take Diderot with a grain of salt. Maybe a LARGE CHUNK of SALT!!!!
The re-sawing happens at the 5 minute mark.
Its done with two people.
Contributor
They are moving through that cypress at a very good pace. I can tell you for certain that is faster than a panel saw and appears to be less strenuous on the sawyers.
Bumbling forward into the unknown.
Member
It's a shame that people keep dredging up that article. Maybe PW should put a disclaimer at the end of it, because his claims have been pretty conclusively disproven by multiple videos: for example by Dave Weaver, Shannon Rodgers, Tom Fidgen, etc. Dave even has a video where he walks through the situations in which the frame saw is faster than a very coarse rip saw (and if you've seen him on camera, Dave can book through lumber with a coarse saw, so that's saying something).
Anyway, it's pretty clear that the frame saw does work, and that Adam had some design flaws that prevented him from using a saw like that to its potential.
"For me, chairs and chairmaking are a means to an end. My real goal is to spend my days in a quiet, dustless shop doing hand work on an object that is beautiful, useful and fun to make." --Peter Galbert
Contributor
Well, its out there, and its is presented by Popular Woodworking so it does have that going for it. I'd be interested in a couple of those other video's. Perhaps you could share a link or two?
Member
I doubt personally that being a POP Woodworking article lends a lot of authority to it. Not after the fallacious other articles I have seen in their magazine. Articles that are sometimes written by authors with less knowledge than the readers.
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