Make bow saw for resawing?

[Patrick Chase]

First of all,that saw repro in the article referred to in post #18,is WAYYYY totally too light in the frame. I can't comment on the blade since I can't see it well. But,Marcus and I sawed our veneer on one camera take with no rehearsals. We had never used that veneer saw before. BUT WE KNOW HOW TO SAW. We did not even bother to make saw cuts to start the big teeth in.

Out of curiosity what do you think of the Bad Axe framesaw kit?

[Steve Voigt]

I'd be interested in a couple of those other video's. Perhaps you could share a link or two?

Reinis already linked to one above. I'm sure you can Google and find the others.

[Patrick Chase]

I doubt personally that being a POP Woodworking article lends a lot of authority to it. Not after the fallacious other articles I have seen in their magazine. Articles that are sometimes written by authors with less knowledge than the readers.

This is the second time this week we've had a debate over something ridiculous from Cherubini (he also authored one of the "olde timers didn't flatten their tools and you shouldn't either" pieces that was quoted in the flattening thread).

Strike two...

[Steve Voigt]

I think "ridiculous" might be a bit harsh. There's no doubt Adam had some decidedly idiosyncratic ideas--for example, suggesting that mortise chisels should be used in paring fashion, without a mallet, to dig out mortises--but I think it's mostly a case of ideas that were not quite ready for prime time.

On a related note, I don't think PW should be excoriated for any inaccuracies in Adam's column. He's long gone, and I suspect whoever hired him is too. Last I heard (and this was a while ago), Peter Follansbee was writing that column, and it's hard to think of anyone more qualified.

[Patrick Chase]

I think "ridiculous" might be a bit harsh. There's no doubt Adam had some decidedly idiosyncratic ideas--for example, suggesting that mortise chisels should be used in paring fashion, without a mallet, to dig out mortises--but I think it's mostly a case of ideas that were not quite ready for prime time.

Yeah, fair enough. I overdid it (but hey, George and I *agreed* about something!)

Paring with mortise chisels sounds like a fun one. I'm sure that's exactly what the toolmakers had in mind when they put super beefy handles and leather washers on those old pigstickers.

[John Kananis]

George, those videos from 1976 were just plain awesome. Are there any others floating around out there? If so, I'd be VERY interested - especially the violin making but I'll take anything.

Sorry to take this OT.

[Pat Barry]

David Weaver has a couple of interesting videos on youtube on making a frame saw. If you have a space then bandsaw is hard to beat though and if you are mostly handtooler then I do not see a need for any of the bandsaws that are over $1K

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1GHQwYoux0

He does say at the 17:30 minute mark that he's "not sure the frame saw is worth the trouble". At that point he had commented that the rip saw he was using was pretty fast. I think you have to admit that the frame saw he was using at about 48 inches was probably well suited for two people and poorly suited for one person.

[Reinis Kanders]

Cherubini was fun though, too bad he is not on the scene anymore. I think he also was an ME or something like that.

This is the second time this week we've had a debate over something ridiculous from Cherubini (he also authored one of the "olde timers didn't flatten their tools and you shouldn't either" pieces that was quoted in the flattening thread).

Strike two...

[Reinis Kanders]

I agree about that that is why I have my Jet 14" bandsaw, it can do up to 12" re-saw, good enough for me. Thankfully I do not have the space for any heavy machinery.

He does say at the 17:30 minute mark that he's "not sure the frame saw is worth the trouble". At that point he had commented that the rip saw he was using was pretty fast. I think you have to admit that the frame saw he was using at about 48 inches was probably well suited for two people and poorly suited for one person.

[Patrick Chase]

George, those videos from 1976 were just plain awesome. Are there any others floating around out there? If so, I'd be VERY interested - especially the violin making but I'll take anything.

Sorry to take this OT.

Yeah, those videos are terrific. Thanks for pointing them out. George does indeed make veneer-cutting look easy.

The low tuning on the instruments (esp the violin) that play sporadically throughout is like nails on chalkboard for me though. I had to turn the sound off a couple times.

[george wilson]

Well,Patrick,I guess you'll never make a good violin maker!! do you mean tuning the plates of the violin,or the awful violin playing? A friend of the musical consultant. And,A was 420 rather than 440 in the 18th. C.. I was using my own 18th. C. tuning fork in the film. Later,I made a copy of the 420 tuning fork for the Musical Inst. Makers to use,after I became Tool Maker.

I will say that the OLD sound recording equipment that the museum had was not of the greatest quality. I'd like to turn the sound off when that violin player is playing! He was certainly not my choice! That decision was made by the musical consultant of Williamsburg,and I had nothing to do with it.

The sound in the film "warbles" a bit,and the equipment must have been at least 20 years old that recorded the sound in the film. Too bad,really,as the film was partially about SOUND!!!!! Playing a baroque violin requires practice. I knew someone else who could have made the violin sound a LOT BETTER. But,he was not part of the "political" inner ring of the museum,i suppose.

We made 3 films,actually. There are films that include only ONE of the instruments being made. They are a lot more detailed concerning each instrument,since all the time is devoted to only one instrument. The violin making film is much more artistic.

Unfortunately,the individual films were never made available to the public. They are probably stashed away somewhere in the archives of the Audio Video Department.

Is Cherubini dead or something? Please fill me in. The way you guys talk,it sounds like he is dead.

[Patrick Chase]

Well,Patrick,I guess you'll never make a good violin maker!! do you mean tuning the plates of the violin,or the awful violin playing? A friend of the musical consultant. And,A was 420 rather than 440 in the 18th. C.. I was using my own 18th. C. tuning fork in the film. Later,I made a copy of the 420 tuning fork for the Musical Inst. Makers to use,after I became Tool Maker.

I meant the violin playing. Your work is impeccable of course.

I'm aware that's a "period" tuning. I was a moderately serious Cellist in my youth (this guy was my youth symphony standmate, though by the end of high school it was clear that he would be a top-tier pro, me not so much). Unfortunately I have absolute pitch and it's trained to A440 :-).

[george wilson]

The lower pitch,REAL gut strings,and lower tension on the strings take getting used to. The Concert Master of the Baltimore Symphony was the only person I heard(he used to come to the shop and play that violin we made),who seemed to know how to make a baroque violin sound proper and good.

I later on made him a lion's head violin. He was a baroque music specialist. I made an extra lion's head which I have shown here,sometime after I made his violin. He suggested the lion head as he wanted the violin to look as "Period" as possible. Of course,the normal violin scroll peghead is the most USUAL form of peghead back then. He wanted his to stand out.


Well,I can't find pictures of his violin,but if you search for "A baroque violin I made" or maybe "A lion's head violin I made" you can probably find it. Here's a not too good picture of the extra lion's head I made.

I think that as you add pictures to the files of available pictures,some older pictures get pushed out. I don't feel like searching for the pictures right now,as I was up till 5:00 with my wife. Had to take her to a FAR AWAY hospital after she had a bad fall about midnight last night.

P.S.: "A baroque violin I made" does take you to the violin. I put "I made" on all my picture posts to make them easier to search for.

[Mark AJ Allen]

I love the discussion here; I do lots of resawing and have built all sorts of framesaws and kerfing planes to optimize my resawing technique. I think I'm getting to my really happy place with my experimentation. I could write an essay on the topic but there are some things I would like to add here:

1. Resawing with a frame saw is much more accurate than a hand saw; the plate deflects less because it's under tension
2. Resawing with a pre-established kerf is easier and allows you to correct for deflection easier with a low angle position
3. It is optimal if the kerf width equals the kerf of your resaw; if the kerf is narrow, your saw won't fit. if the kerf is too wide, it lets the saw wander more.
4. A wider sawplate is desirable on the framesaw to minimize deflection; it has more beam strength
5. Length of the framesaw plate; at least twice the width of the cut you're making + 6"
6. I found the traditional design like you see in Roubo unbalanced for single person operation; there is too much weight past the beginning of the cut and the saw digs in. I added an extended handle frame to address that on my design
7. Kerfing with a traditional saw tooth pattern is not ideal; the gullets clog very quickly. A skip tooth pattern better; the plate I have has every other tooth removed. Those still clog, but not as often
8. A one-person framesaw has to be heavy enough to apply ALL the necessary downward force so it cuts without any additional downward force from the operator; you can change that with handle configurations or just add weight

If you want, I can elaborate on the points and how I came to my conclusions. My primary source of sawplate and hardware is From Blackburn Tools.

[Pat Barry]

I love the discussion here; I do lots of resawing and have built all sorts of framesaws and kerfing planes to optimize my resawing technique. I think I'm getting to my really happy place with my experimentation. I could write an essay on the topic but there are some things I would like to add here:

1. Resawing with a frame saw is much more accurate than a hand saw; the plate deflects less because it's under tension
2. Resawing with a pre-established kerf is easier and allows you to correct for deflection easier with a low angle position
3. It is optimal if the kerf width equals the kerf of your resaw; if the kerf is narrow, your saw won't fit. if the kerf is too wide, it lets the saw wander more.
4. A wider sawplate is desirable on the framesaw to minimize deflection; it has more beam strength
5. Length of the framesaw plate; at least twice the width of the cut you're making + 6"
6. I found the traditional design like you see in Roubo unbalanced for single person operation; there is too much weight past the beginning of the cut and the saw digs in. I added an extended handle frame to address that on my design
7. Kerfing with a traditional saw tooth pattern is not ideal; the gullets clog very quickly. A skip tooth pattern better; the plate I have has every other tooth removed. Those still clog, but not as often
8. A one-person framesaw has to be heavy enough to apply ALL the necessary downward force so it cuts without any additional downward force from the operator; you can change that with handle configurations or just add weight

If you want, I can elaborate on the points and how I came to my conclusions. My primary source of sawplate and hardware is From Blackburn Tools.

These are excellent points Mark. With regard to the kerfing, how deep do you recommend? It must be more than just a sightline, right, I mean if you expect the kerf to help the saw track there must be some depth to it. Thanks