Was about to buy a SS ICS.. Now thinking Minimax SC4. Any other saw I should look at?

[Steven Wayne]

the kerf on that blade is smaller then the riving knife

Is the riving knife 0.125"?

I'm not finding a Tenyru blade that will fit the machine - 12" 1" arbor .125 kerf 60T

[David T gray]

Is the riving knife 0.125"?

I'm not finding a Tenyru blade that will fit the machine - 12" 1" arbor .125 kerf 60T

i was wrong its .111 or 2.8mm so it will just barely work

[Jim Becker]

I've read tons of threads about sliders. One thing I'm wondering about.. Suggestions on blades? I was thinking a Forrest WWII for hardwoods and their blade for plywood/MDF. I welcome any suggestions on blades. And slider related stuff in general.

I continue to use the WW-II 40T 10" blades that I owned prior to buying my S315WS since they fit and continue to perform well after many sharpenings. I'll probably replace them with 12" equivalents when they eventually wear out. I did need to buy a second riving knife and grind it down to keep it just below the height of the 10" blade, however. I also have a 12" sheet goods blade that came with my saw and it also performed well. I do not recall the brand. That one does need to go in for sharpening, however.

[Brian Lamb]

Brian, you're saying that the standard eccentric-type clamp that SCM (and every other mfr. out there) supplies for their sliding table saws are wholly unusable and that you must have a pneumatic system in order to be usable or to be safe? Just trying to be clear on what you're trying to say.

Erik

Hi Erik,

Not saying they are "wholly unusable", please don't put words in my mouth I didn't say. What I said is they are not good enough (in my opinion) for times when you do a lot of repetitive clamping in short order. I originally designed and built the air clamps because I had just done an arts and crafts style coffee table with two end tables and by the time I got done with all the tenons it was well over 300. The speed increase alone, let alone the relief from the stress on my wrists and forearms from locking/unlocking that eccentric 300 times was well worth it.

Just because the "standard" clamp from Minimax, Felder, Hammer, Robland and a host of others is an eccentric, doesn't mean it's the best... it means it's an economical clamp that the builders can get away with supplying on their machines without the customer's botching about too much. I have been a moderator on the Robland forum for over 20 years and on the Felder Owner's Group for over 15 and the number of folks dissatisfied with the eccentric clamps is not a small number, hence the sales of the Airtight clamps Mac makes, the sales of the Felder Pneumatic clamps, Martin, and Altendorf both have them as options. So while they are not a necessity, they sure make life a lot easier and a lot safer.

The safer part comes into play because the pneumatic clamps are much easier to use than the eccentric clamps (no fussing with exact height to get the proper amount of cam over) so therefore most folks are more inclined to use them rather than "awww... it's just one cut..." and have something fly out or get cut.

So... just to be clear, that's what I'm saying, thanks for asking.

[Jim Andrew]

I bought one of those tall eccentric clamps to use on my Hammer slider, but find one of those automatic Kreg T track clamps works much better for me. Had to cut a steel plate to fit in the track of the Hammer slider table, but just slide the clamp in, squeeze it over the board and it holds tight enough to rip a board. The automatic clamps are cool, just adjust the tension, and it doesn't matter how thick the board you want to clamp is.

[Erik Loza]

...The safer part comes into play because the pneumatic clamps are much easier to use than the eccentric clamps (no fussing with exact height to get the proper amount of cam over) so therefore most folks are more inclined to use them rather than "awww... it's just one cut..." and have something fly out or get cut...

Brian, I hear your points but will just say this for the record: In all these years, I have never had any hobbyist or shop complain to me about an having to "just get by with" a regular eccentric clamp and likewise have never had any customer describe to me any safety incident from them not choosing to use one. If that's the assertion. Not saying that it hasn't or doesn't happen. Just saying that on the list of user complaints or comments I take about sliders and combo machines, that' would be a new one. Things like pneumatic clamping systems are like Aigner accessories to me. Yeah, they're awesome but they're also not free. Sure, Martin, Altendorf, et al sell them because, well, you're buying a Martin or an Altendorf! For example, what would you charge a shop for one of your setups? $1,500? $2K? Sure, we'd all love to have something like that but it's not like the machines is unsafe if you don't have it.

What I was trying to say, and maybe it didn't come across the first time, was that I encourage owners to try the machine out with the stock equipment and THEN decide if they need to spring for the pneumatic setup. You can always buy it later, right? If we're going statistics, most won't. But if it's something a customer wants, then should absolutely get them. It's your machine and you should do what you want.

Getting back to the plain 'ol clamp-thing, I have never personally found using/moving/adjusting the regular clamps to be any hassle at all but do suggest putting a little square of leather between the clamp and the workpiece. This is simple and keeps the clamp from shifting the workpiece as it tightens down, won't mar the workpiece, is cheap and easy, etc.



Erik

[Jim Becker]

For a production shop doing a lot of repetitive clamping, pneumatics can certainly be a boon. For the rest of us, the OEM clamps do do the job.

Erik, I like the leather idea, although I just usually use a piece of scrap 1/2" plywood.

[Warren Lake]

in the past I did some low volume work where I was told I needed a CNC machine to do the work, I worked it out ignored that statement.

I set up a clamping system taking the clamps off my blum hinge machine, two clamps held the part and a floor pedal turned the clamps on and off, this allowed for both hand placement of the material. I put 80 grit stick on sandpaper from autobody rolls on the ends of the clamps. The blum clamps were simple and small but still worked very well and it was fast and convenient. I had tried toggle clamps at first but waste of time and annoying but it also depends how much you are clamping and how fast between machining.

On the photo that shows the mortise being cut on my machine I do the 80 grit under the clamp on that as well, it works fine, I dont really like those clamps as they rotate and you cant control the length of the arm up to the clamp.

[Joe Calhoon]

Eric,
Thank you for posting the picture of the guy running end cuts on the shaper. That is a real good example of why the eccentrics are weak and shows poor and unsafe shaper use on several levels. We get a lot of first time and hobby shaper users to our workshops along with pros. I hear a lot of complaints about the eccentrics especially with shapers. After they see and use the pneumatics they can see the night and day difference. True, I would not recommend new buyers on a budget to run out and buy clamps right away. It is an option that will add a huge level of safety and accuracy to sawing operations and I consider pneumatics a must have for any door and window end cuts on shapers. Early on we had shop built shaper sleds with Destako type pneumatics and even those are a far cry better than eccentric and not that expensive.

The problem with eccentrics is even when using a spacer block to set it its very difficult to achieve the right pressure and you will always get sideways movement at times with these. Too much pressure and you can twist a lightweight sliding table and too little will cause slippage. A 3" X 3" wood block with sandpaper screwed to the shoe of the clamp will help. The better eccentrics come with holes in them for this purpose.

As far as slider length. We started with a new 10' SCM slider after many issues with that saw we went to a 8 1/2' 20 year old Martin. We used it for several years building whole house projects of cabinets, millwork and doors. There were only a few times the 8 1/2' was a issue. At the time we did not have any or know about clamps for the slider. So yes you can get buy without but after using them I could never go back. We now have a 10' plus Martin and every once in a while run into something that caused the Festool saw to come out. I do think you could get by nicely with one clamp on the front of a 8.5 slider.

Here are some examples where eccentrics could be very dangerous for shaper use.

IMG_3800.jpgIMG_3811.jpgIMG_3815.jpgIMG_3822.jpg

[Brian Lamb]

Brian, I hear your points but will just say this for the record: In all these years, I have never had any hobbyist or shop complain to me about an having to "just get by with" a regular eccentric clamp and likewise have never had any customer describe to me any safety incident from them not choosing to use one. If that's the assertion. Not saying that it hasn't or doesn't happen. Just saying that on the list of user complaints or comments I take about sliders and combo machines, that' would be a new one. Things like pneumatic clamping systems are like Aigner accessories to me. Yeah, they're awesome but they're also not free. Sure, Martin, Altendorf, et al sell them because, well, you're buying a Martin or an Altendorf! For example, what would you charge a shop for one of your setups? $1,500? $2K? Sure, we'd all love to have something like that but it's not like the machines is unsafe if you don't have it.

What I was trying to say, and maybe it didn't come across the first time, was that I encourage owners to try the machine out with the stock equipment and THEN decide if they need to spring for the pneumatic setup. You can always buy it later, right? If we're going statistics, most won't. But if it's something a customer wants, then should absolutely get them. It's your machine and you should do what you want.

Getting back to the plain 'ol clamp-thing, I have never personally found using/moving/adjusting the regular clamps to be any hassle at all but do suggest putting a little square of leather between the clamp and the workpiece. This is simple and keeps the clamp from shifting the workpiece as it tightens down, won't mar the workpiece, is cheap and easy, etc.


Erik

Well, maybe because I have been moderating user groups not associated with the builders for so many years, but the "eccentric clamp issues" posts come up on a regular basis.... my eccentric clamp pushes the material, how do I get it to be the same level of tight every time, how tight is tight enough... and the list of complaints goes on.

As Joe posts, there are times when I sure wouldn't trust the eccentric clamps and his pictures of the little raised panel would make me a bit concerned too, even with air clamps, but I don't like shapers very much.

Several more advantages, using an air clamp gives you consistent clamping pressure on any thickness of material up to the stroke of the cylinder, from 0" to 4" in my case, so I never have to readjust anything for different material thickness. I can also, with a twist of my regulator, hold gently enough to not squish polystyrene insulation (I use a hot wire cutter on my Felder for cutting up packaging materials for our woodworking accessories) to clamping so hard (at 100 psi) that the clamp pads will dent into softer woods.

As for cost, you can build a set of two for probably under $400 to $500 depending upon where you buy the parts. Given the overall expense of these machines, I don't see that as a big expense, especially if you are ever trying to make money with your machines, the cost of the clamps will be paid for in faster through put in short order, like days....

[David Kumm]

I used eccentric clamps for years on the shaper but always used a second clamp to fist lock stock to fence. Not needed with pneumatics. With a long slider, it is a pain to go around to the back side of a panel to access one or the other. I agree that the cost can add up but there are a lot of parts and fittings involved. People have no issue paying an additional price for a SS. Good accessories should be part of a machine budget. Even a low volume guy can appreciate stuff like Aigner shaper fences and pneumatic clamps.DSCN2371.jpgDSCN2153.jpg Short stroke and long. Dave

[Warren Lake]

I dont have a slider and know I would benefit from it for a few reasons. I looked at one a few weeks ago and thought ripping stock would be annoying, too much of the part that holds the sliding carriage would prevent me from standing where I want to stand. I get the outboard stop thing now that ive seen all the posts, had never seen that before. Ive had to machine stuff longer than a slider could take over the years up to 14-16 feet long and the jointer was best for that. realize that was a smaller portion of all the material ive machined.

The little raised panel I would run on a power feed with a belt not wheels, it works perfect Keeping constant pressure on the piece where wheels would be useless. 3/.16 piece of metal at the bottom of a piece of wood clamped onto the shaper fence for the piece or any raised panel to run on. Ive never had a pnuematic clamp fail but I have had parts slip in them if they are under a certain amount of resistance. Some of the clamps ive used are built better than others so know there is a quality difference in them as well.

[Steven Wayne]

One month into waiting on the slider to get here. The waiting is the hardest part. Looking like it will be to me mid July..

[Andy Giddings]

I know the feeling, 2 months into the wait for mine and its due August :-( Nothing like setting up a new machine in an uninsulated double garage in the middle of a Texas summer :-)

[Andrew J. Coholic]

I used a Sicar 10' slider - with two decent cam clamps - for 21 years. In 2010, I replaced it with a new Griggio C45 (also with a 10 foot carriage) and used the provided cam clamps for a few years.

After seeing some saws with the pneumatics- I wanted to try them, but not wanting to spend that kind of $$... Being somewhat handy, I bought some cylinders, valves, and made up a pair of my own clamps (one sits permanently in front of the cross cut fence, and one I use when needed at the rear of the table. Both have their own valves.

Total cost was under $400, with the control valves, Festo fittings and such being the bulk of the cost.

The Griggio is used as a panel saw (I have a 5HP SS ICS as the other saw in our shop currently) for cutting up sheet goods. I find the rear pneumatic clamp very handy, especially for melamine which tends to have some stresses in it, and more likely to shift a wee bit during the cut.

For cross cutting, I have made it a rule both for myself and the employees to ALWAYS use it. It is so much safer, and with the pneumatic control set on the end of the panel support arm (within easy reach of whatever cut you are doing, full sheet or not) it becomes second nature to activate the clamp before every cut.

Once you use this type of clamp, going back to a cam style would be very difficult IMO. And, if you are somewhat handy (and have some basic metal fabrication tools) you can make something up VS buying, and save quite a bit of $$.

By the way, I might be a bit "different"... lol but I wouldn't want to be without either of my saws. I couldnt run the business without the slider, but I love the 5hp Sawstop as well. Nice saw, gets used prob a few hours every day by everyone and has impressed me in the 5+ years its been earning its keep in the shop. Big slider is nice - but some things are just so much easier on a small cabinet saw.