How do you run your ducting to a combo machine?

[mark mcfarlane]

One problem with dropping ducting from the ceiling to a slider in the middle of the room is the location of the drop will still get in the traffic lane. It probably needs to be at least 4.5 feet to the right of the blade. The duct run can't be in front of, to the left, or behind the blade.

If you have a combo machine, it seems like a vertical drop would end up right where you would stand for the J/P operation.

Please share some pictures of your ducting to a combo saw/J/P.

[Prashun Patel]

Which combo machine do you have?
On my Hammer, the ports aim downward to the right for planing and downward to the left for jointing. My drop's behind the machine with a flexible connection to the port that doesn't have to be removed but flips up and over during changeover. This prevents me from having to reach behind and access the union.

[Chris Padilla]

My Minimax FS41-Elite (16" J/P) has the dust chute on the same side for both operations. Mine snakes along the floor and up.

I'll be the first to admit that it isn't ideal but even after 16 years of a full garage of machines, I find myself still moving things around to find the best fit.

However I feel pretty good about the J/P location so I may tap off my overhead duct and drop it from there but then I have the issue of opening/closing the gate conveniently.

Sigh, it's always something.

[Mike Wilkins]

My slider is located with the right table adjacent to a wall on the right. The duct work runs along the wall about 12-14 inches from the floor around half of the shop. From a Y-branch I run flex duct to the saw at the base. The Y has a 2 1/2" wye to connect the duct that goes to the blade shroud.
If you are locating the saw in the center of the shop, I would locate the drop-down to the right forward edge of the right table; out of the way of any sawing operations.

[mark mcfarlane]

I think you guys missed my question, sorry I wasn't more clear. Let me try again:

How are you running ducting to a combo machine that includes a saw and a jointer and a planer?

A slider by itself, or a standalone J/P are different animals from a 4-way combo.

Prashun, I don't own the machine yet, I'm still doing the virtual layout thing with ducting considerations. I can't see any logical way to run duct to a 4-function combo machine except through the floor, or have a trip hazard. It seems like any kind of vertical drop either gets in the way of the slider, or in the way of the J/P.

[Erik Loza]

Mark, ours is overhead and we have a tee with drop for the smaller port on the riving knife guard. On the Minimax machines, the dust chutes always point the same direction. So, we have the drop from overhead for the riving knife and then just a Y-box on the floor, since the shaper has two exhaust ports. But they are all under the saw outfeed area, which is not an area you typically walk through. I've also seen guys just run skinny hose through the ceiling joists and then over to the main DC area. The riving knife dust port sees maybe 25% of the dust from the table saw. The vast majority goes out the big port, underneath. Hope this helps,

Erik

[Prashun Patel]

Whoops. You were clear as can be. I just didn't see the 'saw'.

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark, ours is overhead and we have a tee with drop for the smaller port on the riving knife guard. On the Minimax machines, the dust chutes always point the same direction. So, we have the drop from overhead for the riving knife and then just a Y-box on the floor, since the shaper has two exhaust ports. But they are all under the saw outfeed area, which is not an area you typically walk through. I've also seen guys just run skinny hose through the ceiling joists and then over to the main DC area. The riving knife dust port sees maybe 25% of the dust from the table saw. The vast majority goes out the big port, underneath. Hope this helps,

Erik

Thanks very much Erik. From these 2 pics it looks like your drop is about 3' NE from the saw outfeed/jointer infeed corner of the machine, and it looks like you have to step over the duct to joint an 8' board.

[Erik Loza]

Mark: Yes.

Erik

[mark mcfarlane]

Mark: Yes.

Erik

Thanks Erik. I have some soil and foundation issues in south Texas that make in/under-slab piping problematic (I have another active thread on this topic), and I don't see any reasonable way to send DC ducting to a 4-way combo other than having pipe coming from under the floor, or laying on the floor, coming from the nearest wall. Anything overhead is going to get in the way, this type of machine demands access from all 4 sides.

... so I'm rethinking my shop design and tool selection for the umpteenth time,. Maybe the best approach is to put a slider or slider/shaper along the wall like Mike Wilkins has stated above (and others I have seen). with the blade ~50 left of the wall. I was hoping to get 3 rows of machines in the shop with two aisles between and the slider as the entire middle row, but I don't see a good way to do that with a combo saw/shaper/J/P being the middle row due to how to deliver the ducting.

I'll work on some new designs with some 'easier to vertical duct' tools down the middle row, like a bandsaw and J/P, or see if I can fit all the machines on the outer walls. If I dump my dedicated SCMS wall...

Maybe I am at a disadvantage starting the shop design from scratch. It would be easier on my brain to just have a space, buy some machines, and figure it out .

I do appreciate the great advice, support, and thoughtfulness I have received from this site.

[Erik Loza]

Mark, I hear what you are saying but to my mind, the 4-in-1 is still the most direct solution. Sure, you could put a saw/shaper and jointer/planer up against walls and that would get DC hoses out of the way but it would also eat up a TON of wall space. Not just the machines, but the infeed and outfeed space.

One thing I see a lot is guys getting trapped by "analysis-paralysis". Whether it's shop layout, machine specs, or whatever. We all have this vision in our minds of how we want the shop to be (not that there is anything wrong with that). I'm as guilty of this as anyone and sometimes my wife just asks me, "You going to stare at that thing forever or actually fix it?". I'll talk to some guys for years and it's the same conversation: Still trying to figure it out, etc. And they never do anything. I'm not a psychologist but my feeling is that it's this fear of "not being in control" of every aspect of this or that. It's all scary becase the machines are expensive, the DC system is expensive, you don't want to have do things twice, etc. and some guys just get paralyzed by that. But the reality is, at least in my opinion, you need to let go of some of that and accept that fact that it won't be perfect and that you will have to probably re-do some things. In other words, accept some uncertainty and that there will be some changes to your workflow.

I will give you a great example: In a few months, I'm going to have to arrange the Minimax machines in the IWF show booth in Atlanta. What will happen is that one of the Italians will give me a schematic with little drawings of the various machines and how they expect them to be laid out in the booth. The drawing is CAD generated and every machine will be to exact scale. I have done at least 10 major trade shows for SCM/Minimax over the years and would you care to guess how many times we ended up putting the machines exactly where the drawing specified? ZERO times. Not once. "Why?", you ask. Well, what they can't do in their calculations and drawings is account are the various human factors. How will people circulate through the booth? Will we be able to demo the CU300 if there is a crowd of people watching the CNC machine that is adjacent to us? Why is our best selling machine over in the corner instead of out front? I'm to the point now where I sort of don't even use the schematic. Just see what machines we have and make the decision once I get to the booth. Anyhow, point being, I've come to accept the fact that there wil be uncertainty, chaos, and re-doing things til I get it how I like. But sure enough, the booth always seems to work better when we're through with it. Anyhow, point being that none of us really knows what we don't know and the only way we learn is by trying it and then tweaking or adjusting. We could sit here and analyze things to death or just make it work and proceed on to the actual woodworking. I hope this all makes sense.

Another photo of CU300 dust collection. I would take the hose that's on the saw port and move it up the shaper port for shaper work. But basically, those are your two big hoses.

Erik

P1010080.jpg

[mark mcfarlane]

Thanks Erik for your insights. Analysis Paralysis seems to have become my middle name on this project. I understand my inability to accurately predict workflow from drawings, yet before construction begins I have an opportunity to, e.g., move a wall out 18" which could make a difference in space usability. Construction starts around Christmas this year, and will probably take 5-6 months to complete, so I may have too much time on my hands to overthink things.

I certainly understand the value of a 4-way machine sharing infeed and outfeed space for the saw, jointer, and planer, that is a huge benefit.

Maybe the ducting solution for me with a 4-way machine is to just lay one flex duct run on the floor and swap it between the ports as needed with a quick release connection. I don't think that would be as dangerous as a fixed 6" pipe, and I could leave enough extra length to move it around on the floor when I'm working the jointer side. I'm not running a production shop, so swapping ducting would probably only happen for one week each month during the milling phase of projects.

Is the CU410 Classic a new machine, or did I miss that previously on the minimax web site?

[John Sanford]

Marc,

I think you need to think old school. REAL old school.

Take some inspiration from these pictures.

Your drop is on a boom. The boom swivels. Yes, nothing is permanent, which means you'll have the annoyance of making/breaking connections. (Although you may even be able to avoid that, with enough flex hose). You also don't have anything on the floor.

[mark mcfarlane]

Marc,

I think you need to think old school. REAL old school.

Take some inspiration from these pictures.

Your drop is on a boom. The boom swivels. Yes, nothing is permanent, which means you'll have the annoyance of making/breaking connections. (Although you may even be able to avoid that, with enough flex hose). You also don't have anything on the floor.

Thanks John, that has given me a couple ideas.

[Tom M. Schmidt]

Mark,

I use a 25' length of 6" flex hose from DC to the CU300, connected with a Fernco. It slides on/off the port easily and can be moved to the other 2 ports quickly. Eventually I'll do quick fit with gates, with a branch off to the blade guard, and flex hose on the floor, but so far this works for me. On rare occasion I may need to move the CU300 out of the way, but I do like being able to walk all around the machine.

Minimax CU300 dust collection - 1.jpgMinimax CU300 dust collection - 2.jpg