I'm looking for some jig where I can use a miter saw to get dead accurate perpendicular crosscut.
[OP]
Member
I'm looking for some jig where I can use a miter saw to get dead accurate perpendicular crosscut.
Member
There are two:Originally Posted by Brian Sommers
1. Miter box, and not the cheapo kind from Home Depot. In my experience these are a bit less accurate than a fully optimized crosscut sled (no play in the miter slots, sawblade free of vibration and runout and adjusted // to miter slot[s], fence perpendicular to bars) but close enough to allow you to quickly dial the surface in with a...
2. Shooting board. If built and used properly it's capable of higher accuracy than a crosscut sled, though it uses a plane rather than a miter saw.
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How about a miter box? Unfortunately, unlike a crosscut sled, you may not be able to just pop your existing saw into one, though there are several sizes. If you google around for "millers falls" miter boxes, you'll see several different varieties, and this is a whole rabbit-hole to go down....
I have a Miller's Falls/Langdon miter box but my favorite is a Stanley #150. It is a smaller unit that fits on a bench hook about the size of a normal bench hook. The 20" Bontz Saw Works 10ppi backsaw I have in it uses just about all of the teeth on the saw. I have a 26" saw on the Miller's Falls miter box and it actually uses the same or less teeth, as the saw has to ride between two posts. I can actually use a regular handsaw in the 150 too.
I ended up with an extra bathroom cabinet which I placed a Festool table top on. The small miter box on the bench hook is easy to move to the top of the work table when needed. I can also clamp it to my Festool MFT table or my bench. Festool clamps fasten it in position very securely. The saw is positioned at the perfect height for sawing. Once my stock is XX I can take the saw off the table and use the table to do glue ups....
click to enlarge:
Miter saw table.jpg
Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-06-2016 at 11:16 PM.
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If you don't want to go vintage, my Nobex Pro does a pretty good job.
01h0810s1.jpg
Member
Out of curiosity how is the blade tension on that saw?
My gut reaction the first time I saw one was that the tension bar on the top doesn't have enough mechanical advantage, as the blade is about twice as far from the compression member.
Member
I get dead-accuarate cuts with my Nobex pro. (AKA the "Champion." ) Blade tension is excellent. If you really TRY, you can deflect the blade by pushing into the stock really hard, but that's improper technique. If you let the saw do the work, as you are supposed to, there is zero drift or deflection.
I can't say enough good things about this system. Great clamps, (I added 2 more to mine, right near the center) great width & height capacity...
It's a minor pain to change blades, but at least you CAN change blades. I have all of them, and use this system to cut aluminum, brass, even iron pipe.
I did make 2 small tweaks, besides the extra clamps, though: I added some plastic shims on the inside of the guide bars, to make the vertical alignment tighter, and I put a sacrificial base in the center, so the work can't bend down when you saw. Both of these are bonehead simple mods.
The only thing I didn't like is the extension support. It actually works fine, but it's a little thin & fiddly, plus you can't have one on each side at the same time as they bump into each other underneath. I made my own supports, one for each side, which slide in plastic tracks mounted on the wooden base instead of the aluminum frame. Very nice.
There is no vintage miter box that can even come close for overall usefulness.
The only thing it doesn't have is "some good old American 'arn, haw haw haw ...."
No dried up blood of the countless users that came before you.
No mojo whatsoever.
It's a cold, cold thing, but it does its job perfectly.
Last edited by Allan Speers; 05-06-2016 at 11:39 PM.
Member
My experience is pretty well like Allan's, although I don't like/use the provided clamps but rather small f clamps to secure the stock.
I have a second blade but have only used the original. Will pick up one of the Japanese toothed ones at some point. All the blades are impulse hardened. The saw doesn't have enough mass to avoid chattering on occasion when starting a cut that is easily remedied by tipping it up or down and starting into a corner. I keep meaning to add a sacrificial base insert to support thin stock, as Allan has done.
I've never used a vintage box, other than a Stanley 100 miter machine, so can't compare.
Member
You may or may not have figured this out, but those stock clamps work "backwards." The instructions are beyond abysmal, and the only video on the internet that shows them has them assembled wrong. I think a lot of folks have made this mistake, then decided the clamps are no good.
Once you put them together right, they work great, but again the clamping action is "backwards" from what you'd expect. Try to loosen them and they tighten. I really quite like them.
It's also easily remedied by using the japanese blade.- if I understand what you're referring to. (I may not be.) The stock blade is pretty good, but it cuts sort of rough. The 16 TPI Ikeda is actually smoother, even though it cuts faster, because of the way "Japanese" teeth are cut: They pull the blade into the stock.
I also have the 24 TPI, but I only use it for picture frames as the 16 TPI is so smooth cutting.
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Of course, in response to the OP's question, a miter box isn't really the equivalent of a cross cut sled, since it can't even come close to cutting the same width. IMO, the hand tool equivalent is a crosscut saw, followed by either a jointer plane of a large shooting board.
Last edited by Allan Speers; 05-08-2016 at 12:10 AM.
Contributor
Allan,
Thanks for posting these insights on the Nobex. It's been on my "to buy" list for some time and your insights/experiences help!
Fred
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."
“If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals.”
The Nobex I have and the ones I tried at Highland cut very slow compared to either of my 10 ppi miter saws. The miter box frame, saw frame and saw support are light weight compared to most vintage miter boxes and saws. They seem to me to be designed more for cutting light molding than "normal" stock. I don't think it is fair to say "There is no vintage miter box that can even come close for overall usefulness."
Certainly there is a trade off in regard to size and weight with these boxes. The Miller's Falls 74C I restored will tackle larger stock than the Stanley #150 just by virtue of its heavier, larger frame and saw. These days if I want to cut something big I will use one of my Festool saws or a bandsaw. The small Stanley 150 is a little less convenient than a bench hook but not by much, which is why I use it the most lately. I can also use my hand saws in the Stanley 150, adding to its utility.
I'm a hybrid woodworker but, a miter box very much earns its spot in my shop. Not really analogous to a larger tablesaw sled one might use for square cuts on panels or wide stock but, an equivalent to my smaller sled seems pretty accurate.
"A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg".
– Samuel Butler
Right Glenn, a tablesaw can certainly handle larger pieces with a sled.
I find I can do more types of: rip, cross cut and curved cuts with Festool "hand saws" particularly the track saw and new Carvex jigsaw. With tracks and an MFT table I believe I have a more versatile cutting system than a table saw. The "hand" Festool saws powered by electricity match up better with human powered hand saws.
The MFT tables, clamps and sometimes even the tracks work with hand tools much like they work with actual Festool tools. The Festool powered tools retain much of the mobility of actual human powered tools. They share in common the way they are usually taken to the work as opposed to taking the work to them. They are designed to work on/with a bench/Festool table much like human powered hand tools....I find the Festool tools work more symbiotically with hand tools than stationary powered tools.
Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-07-2016 at 4:55 PM.
Contributor
I do have a tablesaw with a sliding table, and this would be used for crosscutting panels. However, when it comes to joining mitres and fine tuning square edges, then handsaws and handplanes are the tools of choice.
A mitrebox will do the rough cut, and a shooting board will clean the edges for a precision fit.
I have a large Miller's Falls 74C mitre box and 28" saw, but rarely use it. It is really a carpenter's tool and overkill for the small work in the furniture I build. Recently I restored a Miller's Falls 15 1/2 and built a 16" saw for it. This is ideal for the size mitres needed ...
Shooting boards do not need to be fancy to work well, but it does add enjoyment when they are as nice to look at as they are to use. Build yourself something special, and add a low angle plane for the best performance.
Regards from Perth
Derek
I am jealous Derek. I looked for a small MF for years but never found one at a price I thought was reasonable. Is it #15 1/2 or is the box 15 1/2 inches long? I found some information on the Stanley #150 at Bad Axe saws and found them much easier to find at auction for more reasonable prices.
I was not too impressed with the 150 for the first year I had it as it seemed hard to adjust the saw holding devise accurately. After a few times taking the thing apart and playing with the parts I got a better feel for how it works. The two plates need to be closer together than I originally thought. They actually touch until I shove the saw between them. I was also concerned that the metal devise, which holds the saw in place, would scratch up saw plates. Some file work and a coating of Renaissance Wax seems to have solved that issue, if it ever was an issue.
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