Does it really matter where a tool is made?

[Glenn de Souza]

There was a thread about Starrett squares recently that prompted a discussion about their products being made in the USA vs the revelation that some are made in (gasp) China. The assumption being that a product being made in the USA is good and a product being made in China would be junk.

Is this an accurate assumption, or just a widely held but not necessarily true bias?

I have heard comments from manufacturers that the quality that comes from their Chinese subcontractors is mostly a function of the quality control, supervision and enforcement of standards from the manufacturer themselves. Some are very vigilant about it and others are not.

The equation could go the other way also, where a USA manufacturer could have very low standards and still get the "benefit" of a positive bias that goes with being made in USA yet still sell junk.

When I was growing up, there was a deeply held perception that anything made in the USA, Germany, UK would be very high quality and almost everything else was inferior. In fact, in the 70's anything Japanese was considered to be junk, and then some time in the 80's it changed and all of a sudden Japanese made became a symbol of high quality.

So what's the point? Maybe making a good purchase decision requires looking past the country of manufacturer.

I also wonder whether more and more products are made by robotics and computer controlled machines. If they are set up and designed well at the front end, the human factor is much lower and less directly impactful than it would have been traditionally, so what difference would it make where the machinery is operating in terms of the quality of the end product? Maybe the manufacturing process is more portable than ever before, which also undermines biases associated with country of manufacture.

Not intending this to be a political post. I'm just saying that country of manufacture is a data point, but maybe not the decisive data point it once was.

[Peter Aeschliman]

Setting aside political arguments (which aren't allowed here anyway), I agree with your premise that we should be objective when determining the quality of a tool, and that may mean disregarding its country of origin.

The problem is that consumers have to be efficient in the process of deciding what things to buy. Think about all of the stuff we buy every year. Does anybody have time to do a deep analysis of each item before purchasing? Big purchases, like houses and cars, sure. But squares?

So by default, we organize some types of goods into categories to help us quickly separate high and low quality. And one of those criteria, which was probably a pretty safe assumption historically, is that Chinese-made tools are lower quality than USA-made tools.

In general, based only on my personal observations, I do think Chinese-made tool quality is improving. But like anything, you have to pay for it. Harbor Freight will always have low quality tools because low prices are the key to their business model, and people keep buying their stuff.

[Joe Jensen]

In my experience both at a personal level and professionally, the culture in China is different with respect to quality. You can spec a product 9 ways from Sunday for manufacturing in China and if you are not measuring and testing every spec at a very high sample rate the quality will suffer. In Europe and the US manufacturers generally intend to meet the specs. In China it seems that the culture is "If the customer isn't catching the drop in quality then it must not be that important". The other interesting cultural thing (it does seem to be changing some) is that most of the population grew up only purchasing the cheapest version of whatever. Say they are buying sandals. There are super cheap that will fail quickly, medium that will last a year, and expensive that will last indefinitely Everyone would buy the cheapest and then just find a way to keep using them indefinitely. They have a very clear "only the cheapest" producer will win mindset. I had over 200 customers there all pursuing the same market. They all had the exact same strategy, win on the lowest price and cut the quality as low as possible to hopefully make money. There are some wonderful products manufactured there, but it's really important if you are sourcing from China for your manufacturing you must test test test.

[Wayne Jolly]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne

[Frederick Skelly]

I don't believe it's country-dependent. At its roots, quality is a matter of choice on the part of the maker, combined with the maker having enough experience/practice to be able to implement such a choice effectively. The japanese made very sure they could make small cars well, before they stepped up to making luxury cars. The Koreans are trying hard to catch up and when the chinese decide that it matters, they too make quality goods.

The adage "you can have it good, fast or cheap - pick any two" is another way of looking at it.

Edit: Also remember that china, like other countries, works to suit it's own best interests. TOS will not allow me to be political. I think I can say this much: there could be some very good reasons (from their point of view) for allowing shoddy goods to be built.

[David Kumm]

There must be perception differences as the Euro manufacturers- even those who make woodworking machines- tend to not be very forthcoming about what they source from China. Unlike the US, EU nations do not require much disclosure and to stay competitive, more and more of the machine parts and even assembly are done abroad with additional work done in the home country. As long as final assembly is done in EU, it is OK to imply that it is made in that country. Not drawing conclusions but have always preferred full disclosure. I can make my own judgment objectively. My only point is that we sometimes judge based on the wrong info. Dave

[Joe Jensen]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne

I am not at all implying that the Chinese are incapable of quality. That's not the case at all. What I am saying is that the quality level is up to the OEM brand to decide and monitor. Most products manufactured in China are branded and sold by another company, say Bosch. Bosch specifies the quality and is also responsible to ensuring that quality. I am saying that Bosch would have to more closely monitor quality level when they outsource to China for the reasons stated above.

Also, I don't think the decline in quality of American made products was because the workers got lazy. The decline of quality in American made products is the consumer's insatiable appetite for cheaper products. Consumer chase price, brands lower prices, then they need to cut costs, they speed up the manufacturing line, they make parts lighter and cheaper, they reduce quality control checks, and eventually the products is crappy American made. Brands don't want to make crap but consumers only buy the cheapest. Then the next step is to fire all the American workers and move the manufacturing to a third party in Asia. The quality starts out the same and then it too drops as consumers put more and more pressure on the brands for cheap.

[Jon Grider]

Just my $.02 worth, I have purchased some products made in the USA because USA made is supposed to be superior, but turned out to be junk. I have also bought foreign goods intended for a single use that turned out to be my go to tools that I use all the time.

I see a continual decline in the quality of USA made goods. I think SOME of it is because the American workers are riding a wave of a false feeling that they are entitled. Entitled to the highest wages they can possibly get, free health care for life, job for life, participation in company management, etc. You hear a lot about "corporate greed", but that pales in comparison to "employee greed". If they don't get everything they want, they do a poor job. If they do get it all, then the cost of products goes way up and the products become less competitive. So to remain price competitive the manufacturers have to find ways to stay in competition. Cheaper materials, lower standards and tolerances, reduced functionality, etc.

The Chinese, on the other hand, are not stupid people. They are learning and getting better. They started out making junk, then so-so goods, and now some of it is pretty good. It isn't because the workers WANT to do the best job they can do, but because they have to. I certainly wouldn't want to be a worker in China, but even their conditions are improving. You hear less and less about crappy Chinese stuff.

As for robotics, yeah, more and more of it. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Humans just cannot match the repeatability, accuracy, and consistency of machines. The only thing machines are not good at (yet) is when something goes wrong. They can function in conditions that humans cannot even enter in to, all day, every day with no overtime, vacation, sick days, strikes, complaints, etc. I even heard that fast food joints are looking into replacing a lot of the human labor with machines. What do you expect when a burger flipper gets $15/hr.

I'd better shut up now.

Wayne

That "entitlement" perception may have had some merit in the 1980's and 90's but IMO is not valid in 2016. Manufacturing job wages have been stagnant or gone backward since the turn of this century, particularly when factoring in inflation in most every area except perhaps gasoline. I'm assuming you are focused on union workers as far as some of your broad statements about jobs and health care for life. Continually rising health care costs are being passed on to the worker with higher co-pays, higher deductables and much less coverage for the $. Many manufacturers both union and non union have a "tier" system for employees. New employees are paid far less with less benefits. Many employers are avoiding benefit costs entirely by use of temps and government corporate welfare incentives for hiring work release prisoners and felons under probation. Manufacturing initiatives like Toyotas lean manufacturing have been adopted by many USA corps. Lean seeks to eliminate "skilled" positions by breaking skilled jobs into smaller duties that anyone can perform. Performance expectations have increases exponentially, and in my experience speed has surpassed quality in order of importance. At the printing shop I've worked at, non union btw, since we've implemented lean, our ratio of reprints has risen dramatically. The shift in focus is meeting timelines whether the job is done correctly or not.
In my part of the midwest a $15.00 an hour burger flipper is non existent.
I think I'm going for a walk now with my better half.

[Robert Engel]

What I am saying is that the quality level is up to the OEM brand to decide and monitor.

I think this is the key. "When the cat's away the mice will play".

China is like every other manufacturer trying to increase profits and one way to do this is cut corners.

Don't think American manufacturers haven't been doing it, too.

We as a people are at fault because we look for the cheapest, just like the Chinese mentality described. My father was that way. It didn't matter whether it was a pair of shoes or an electric drill, he ALWAYS bought the least expensive thing he could find.

I, however, am quite the opposite. I will forgo buying something and wait till I have the money to afford quality.

[Martin Wasner]

Quality tools can come from anywhere. I have been disappointed by most Asian built tools that I've owned. There is a handful of things that are Asian made that I'm still interested in acquiring, but not many.

I have yet to be upset about anything German I've ever owned.

The thing is about having things built in China is that everything is built to a specification. Those specs can be low or high. Most American consumers are willing to spend a lot less so they can get a lower quality product. Those that are willing to spend multiple times more for a tool that is of higher quality are few and far between.

[Rick Potter]

Along with above concerns, we have to factor in changing conditions in 'emerging nations'. Older creekers will remember the 1950's when some really low quality stuff was made in Japan. It got so bad they renamed a city Usa, so they could label items as made in the USA. Time passed, quality increased, along with the pay of Japanese workers.

Then Taiwan emerged into a manufacturing giant, starting with making cheaper items than Japan. The cycle repeated, followed by China's undercutting of Taiwan manufacturing.

Now, we have Indonesia, India, and Viet Nam entering the fray, undercutting the Chinese near monopoly. In Europe, the former eastern block of nations is gaining strength also.

The beat goes on.

[Susumu Mori]

I want to chip in some food for thought.

First, when we talk about product quality, I think there are two meanings; how they are designed and how reliable they are.

Porsche is built from more precise parts than Toyota Corolla. Porsche can do it because they charge 5 times more $ for a car with a similar size.
It is just a market decision and Porsche can afford to make that decision because there are many people who are willing to spend $100K (of course, not me), while I'm not sure if anybody want to spend that amount for Toyota.
So their products are different from the design. I think we can have somewhat similar arguments for Chinese and EU tools. They are meant to be different.

Then there is the "reliability" issue. We know Toyota Corolla is as reliable as any Porsche. It is possible, just like Japan did in '60s and '70s, China will catch up in this department, but it seems not yet, in general. If we are lucky 90% of the users of a Chinese product without problem, there is a good reason to cerebrate the good purchase decision against unlucky made-in-USA customers with 1% chance (of course, I just made up exaggerated numbers). Some sellers of made-in-China seem to tackle this problem by better customer services, but, to me, it sounds terrible if I have to deal with parts exchange or product returns for a 700-lb machine. So, for a big purchase, it is likely that we pay extra for products with higher reliability.

The third point I want to bring up is, similar to a remark like "boys are taller than girls", "Chinese product is inferior to Made-in-USA/EU" may have truth in it but could be wrong for an individual base. Both from the product design and reliability points of views, we'd better know if we are talking about generalized idea or individual products.

For me, when I was young, made-in-China was the only option. Yet, I learned several things in hard ways. I thought a combination square was just a combination square, only to learn how horrible it could be and how great, in the long run, an investment to good tools is. I think availability of options is great, but I just feel sorry that few bad apples could scare me away from the entire lines from the same seller of made-in-China.

[Cody Colston]

I don't care where a tool is made. I look at value when purchasing most anything. If the quality + price = a good value, then I am getting what I am paying for.

I also don't think "Made in China" automatically means low quality nor do I believe "Made in USA" automatically means high quality.

[Frank Drew]

Chinese goods and skills in some product lines are often best-in-class: If I want a hand-lacquered bowl, I'll probably buy Chinese rather than American; same if I want a hand-made, hand-lacquered (not nitrocellulose) chest. Today, I'd probably lean towards older American or European woodworking machinery because there's a known level of quality.

As others have already pointed out, if the end-seller insists on a very high level of manufacturing quality, there are no doubt Chinese manufacturers who can meet those standards, but it comes down to what's demanded (and paid for). I mean, the Chinese are making commercial quality jets; I assume they can make a terrific table saw if the price is right.

[Peter Kuhlman]

Kind of hard to generalize about countries of manufacture any more. Electronics have moved from Mexico to China to Malaysia to Vietnam Nam as lower labor costs are found. Quality in my experience in Asian counties is all dependent upon a companies oversight. Lots of monitoring can yield high quality products - Apple for instance. It requires constant monitoring as my son will attest. He is in the electronics business and they are constantly struggling with quality issues in China but the company won't commit to sending full time inspectors.
As to tools, I avoid anything from Mexico. Several of the big name companies produce their corded tools there now and I find them to be virtual junk no matter what the brand name. Same with automobiles assembled there.
I prefer to buy a tool one time and am willing to save and wait to get a quality lifetime tool that I will take care of. Virtually nothing in power tools made in the North America anymore. Luckily there are several really high quality hand tool companies like Veritas, Lie Nielsen and others to choose from. I have never been one to say US stuff is the best as I was exposed at an early age to Swiss and German made products as extreme quality. I try to do my homework and use trusted web sites like here to help with product selection. As stated, it gets confusing when a company sells different price points of tools manufactured in various countries.