220V 1-phase elec for new shop

[Thomas Bank]

Thanks for questioning my sanity, you would probably get along well with my wife.

Sanity is highly overrated…

[Jim Becker]

Jim, can you expound on this a little, I'm not sure I am understanding your point.

For many of my machine circuits (because I knew things would change over time) come out from the panel to a j-box somewhere on the ceiling. In the box I have a splice point which makes it easy to move a circuit termination later...'just run a wire from that j-box to the new location, which for convenience in "after the fact" changes, comes down the wall in a piece of conduit to a box, all surface mounted on the wall.

This is actually something that could be considered related to the 120v circuit that you need to move and splice location. You can do your splice "in the wall" in a box with a blank cover. That meets the code requirement for "accessible" and you do want splices to be accessible because it's conceivable that they "could" loosen up over time, etc.

I've spec'd L6-20R and 30R twist locs, thanks.

By oversized boxes, do you mean a 2-gang box with a cover exposing one 'hole' in the middle, or a deeper than normal box,...? Plastic boxes are the norm in my area.

It could be a double gang box or one of the "oversize" boxes that are slightly wider and deeper. Plastic or metal doesn't really matter (aside from having to ground the metal boxes) so whatever works for you. By using a bigger box, you have more room for the stiff $10 and #12 wire and the receptacles for twist locks are beefier in size, too. It just makes for an easier job to have more space. You may or may not need to use metal boxes to accomodate the "centered" covers...make sure things fit before you buy and bring them home.

[Rollie Meyers]

Ummm… Nothing you’re saying is accurate.

Far from being obsolete, single phase 220V power is used throughout the USA. Unless you’re making the argument of the designation of 220V as opposed to 230V or 240V or such. Currently power is standardized at 120V and 240V (−5% to +5%). So you can have voltage readings of about 114V to 126V and 228V to 252V. However, the historical standardized numbers were 110V and 220V, so a lot of people still use those to refer to those. I’ve personally seen voltages below 110V in rural areas even today - which tends to play havoc with things. I also know (architectural) electrical engineers that still refer to 110V and 220V - catsup/ketchup.

Outside the USA, 220V is a completely different animal. In the USA 220V (single phase) is achieved by two hot legs being 110 volts and 180 degrees apart each while 110V power is achieved by one 110V hot leg to neutral. “European” 220V is achieved like our 110V is here - each hot leg is 220V and 180 degrees apart and you use one hot leg to neutral for most household appliances. Trying to compare “US” 220V power to “European” 220V power will likely get you into trouble.

I’m not sure what code issues you refer to for 30A and larger circuits - 120V 30A and 50A circuits are commonplace. Beyond that manufacturers tend to just switch over to 220V because the amperage is halved and therefore requires smaller components. Many motors can be wired to run at either 110V or 220V, but (for example) a 60A 110V motor will only take 30A at 220V (Ohm’s Law).

Finally, you’re comparing apples and oranges. While 240V can be single-phase or 3-phase, 208V refers to a 3-phase setup. Three phase has a central neutral with three legs set evenly apart. For 208V 3-phase, you’re using two legs 120 degrees apart. But 3-phase power - like “European” power - is a completely different animal and a whole ‘nuther discussion.

110,220,440 are still obsolete, the cheap shiny tools from China like Grizzly are shipped as 110,220 but what do you expect from the ChiComs? Motors and welding equipment are rated 115,200, 230 & such to give a wider range of acceptable voltage swings, but appliances, electronic,s & lighting have been rated for the voltages supplied by the utilities, since your saying "208" is 3 phase, you obviously have not seen the very common 120/208 network where all units commercial. and residential are supplied 120/208V single phase, it is derived from 208Y/120V but still single phase, if it's old or junk then it will be rated for obsolete voltages, a electric dryer will not dry as quickly if 110/220 was still the norm, as they are rated for 120/240V....

[mark mcfarlane]

For many of my machine circuits (because I knew things would change over time) come out from the panel to a j-box somewhere on the ceiling. In the box I have a splice point which makes it easy to move a circuit termination later...'just run a wire from that j-box to the new location, which for convenience in "after the fact" changes, comes down the wall in a piece of conduit to a box, all surface mounted on the wall.

This is actually something that could be considered related to the 120v circuit that you need to move and splice location. You can do your splice "in the wall" in a box with a blank cover. That meets the code requirement for "accessible" and you do want splices to be accessible because it's conceivable that they "could" loosen up over time, etc.



It could be a double gang box or one of the "oversize" boxes that are slightly wider and deeper. Plastic or metal doesn't really matter (aside from having to ground the metal boxes) so whatever works for you. By using a bigger box, you have more room for the stiff $10 and #12 wire and the receptacles for twist locks are beefier in size, too. It just makes for an easier job to have more space. You may or may not need to use metal boxes to accomodate the "centered" covers...make sure things fit before you buy and bring them home.

Thanks Jim, adding junction boxes 'in the ceiling' makes sense.

[mark mcfarlane]

Here's an updated electrical plan. I reduced the number of 20-AMP 220V outlets, they are show below as out lets with '3 little lines'. The 2-line guys are nominal 110V.

[mark mcfarlane]

For the record, I thought I'd post the final electrical plan, which got a bit more complicated. The rooms on the left are a new recording studio, the room on the right is the shop.

I'm about a month behind on breaking ground. It should have happened a few weeks ago but I'm having some permitting and easement problems that will hopefully be resolved in the next month. The water 'board' I am dealing with only meets once a month, and every month they have another concern,... I have three utility easements on my property, I keep telling them worse case is they would have to move some future expansion need over 80'. Apparently the board's lawyer is the problem. The good side to the delays is I'll probably be onsite when the foundation is poured, rather than trying to direct construction from overseas.

8-26 plumbing and floor electrical.jpg8-27 electrical plan (except floor ourlets).jpg

[mark mcfarlane]

And a view of the shop and recording studio. The builders are going to love building the studio side of this addition, there are only three 90" corners in the 5 rooms. And I'm sure I'll pick up some new language when I trim it out.

8-27 shop left loaded up.jpg8-28 studio left full.jpg

[Jim Becker]

Ok...now I'm super jealous...a great shop AND a recording studio. That would be a dream for me. Add a kitchen that's even better equipped than I have now, and I'd be in total heaven. LOL

[mark mcfarlane]

Ok...now I'm super jealous...a great shop AND a recording studio. That would be a dream for me. Add a kitchen that's even better equipped than I have now, and I'd be in total heaven. LOL

The studio will be plumbed for a small kitchen (you can see the sink). I may never build out the kitchen, but was thinking of the potential to repurpose the space as a separate apartment so there is a full bath, the control room fits a queen bed, the recording space can be a living room and kitchen, and the vocal booth becomes a closet, separate entrance,... Or the whole thing converts into an office, or a game and media room,.... All wheel chair accessible. Also, if I misbehave I have a nice 'dog house' to be banished to.

9 more weeks to my early retirement and repatriation. I need something to keep me busy for the next 30 years.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, that's a good idea to have the space "pre-prepared" for alternative uses. My reference to the kitchen is that I have multiple "high-interest" things I enjoy...woodworking, cooking, photography, etc., and I could easily slide back into music, too. I have a lot of gear in storage, sadly unused for "many years". I'm at the point that I'm likely going to try and sell some stuff if I can get off my duff and do it. Unfortunately, I suspect much of it isn't going to be worth a lot now. It was "higher end" back in the day, but no longer. At any rate...I absolutely love your plan!!! And if I ever manage to get to your area on business after you have things complete, I may beg a visit to drool.

[mark mcfarlane]

You're welcome to come visit Jim. I do some photography also, and have been contemplating some cooking classes when I get back to the States. We may be clones.

If you have old music gear, price it carefully before you sell it. You may be astounded that the high-end gear of yesteryear can be worth much more than you paid for it.

My main 'paid hobby' for the past decade+ has been providing and operating sound systems for local and B-level international touring groups. I started in the studio, then moved to live sound. At 59 it is becoming a bit of a strain to put a show together, typically 5-7 hours for setup with help, occasionally in 110 degree heat on a chopper pad,.... The physical nature combined with the 10 years it took me to build the live sound business and the liability issues of doing this kind of work in the USA makes it a non-starter as a retirement pursuit. So I'm moving back into the studio and I have to start playing golf again so I can spend more time with my golf-nut wife.

I have a web site for the music biz but I haven't updated it in about 5 years. I've been so busy gigging there hasn't been a need to promote. I've done about 100 live concerts and a few musicals since I quit updating the website in 2012. http://www.arkoserecords.com. If you're a jazz fan, there's a EP from Dave Brubeck's son Darius on the website that I recorded in 2011.

OK, I'm way off track. I actually have a band coming into the studio tonight to (hopefully) finish an LP we started last November. My impending move has been helpful to get the band to finalize arrangements.

[John K Jordan]

If you have old music gear, price it carefully before you sell it. You may be astounded that the high-end gear of yesteryear can be worth much more than you paid for it.

Interesting. How old is "old"? Is midi gear too modern?

I don't know about "high end" either. I have a Kurzweil Midiboard and an Yamaha KX88 plus some stands, cables, good Yamaha pedals and studio monitor speakers plus some Kurzweil synths, and other stuff like reverb, midi switcher, Roland synth, and mixer in a rack. I had a Moog Opus3 but gave it away. All this has been in my storage room since moving to this house and I haven't even looked at prices in 15 years. It needs to find a new home and be modifying sound waves instead of collecting dust.

Is this kind of stuff still useful to anyone? I don't need to retire on the sale since I'm already retired.

midi_gear_s_P8051385s.jpg

When I have time to play these days I prefer my Baldwin grand, a little classical guitar, and some brass to keep the lips in shape.


JKJ

[Wade Lippman]

I realize the shop is already designed, but there is so much misinformation in this thread!

1. 5HP = 30A 10ga wire. 3HP = 20A 12ga wire.
2. In a building that small you don't need to worry about voltage drop.
3. For a 230V receptacles, two hots and a ground. Neutral is for 115v receptacles.

1. Maybe, maybe not. My 3hp Grizzly cyclone requires 40a. Ignore generalities and wire according to the tool.
3. Maybe; some 240v tools have lights or relays that require 120v.

5 hp is 3728 watts, or ~15.5 Amps at 240 v. In theory you should be OK with 12 ga on a 20 amp circuit. You need to find out the actual draw of the motor to be sure though-- the rules on motors are a lot more complicated than the simple math because of startup current and such.

Absurd. No 5hp motor will run on 20a.

When wiring a shop I suggest that you use EMT, (conduit) surface mounted to the walls. Much easier to change things in the future.

For a new shop that is highly unlikely to be true. Properly laid out, the wiring should not need to be changed.

In 15 years, I have never tripped a 30A breaker feeding any of my 5HP machines, so I think 30A is big enough.

Great, but he might be using different tools that will trip on 30a breakers. Follow the manufacturer's recommendations.

Therein lies the rub, since I don't know exactly what equipment is going into the shop.

Then I suppose you would have to run 10/2 everywhere and never buy a tool that is inadequate for.

220 volts is OBSOLETE in the USA

The term "220" is obsolete in the USA. It is now called 240. Beats me why people can't remember that. (I presume they know it...)

[Robby Tacheny]

Wow. I also came from a music/recording/sound background into woodworking. You're going to be mad the first time the air compressor decides it needs to cycle in the middle of one of your recording sessions.

Also, you have two VERY expensive hobbies. Good luck on your shop/studio!

Robby

[Jim Becker]

John, you have some really nice vintage stuff there!! My one remaining keyboard is a Kurzweil 2000...it's out in our loft-landing and available to my older daughter (and me if I get in the mood) and I'm very much a Kurzweil fan. I started out with a Yamaha DX7 and the rack mount version along with a strap-on controller for some fun, too. A Sequential Circuits keyboard and drum machine along with some small Korg keyboard that I can't remember the model number was also an early acquisition and an Ensoniq keyboard was in there somewhere, too.

Mark, that last couple of things I did "professionally" were actually sound reinforcement gigs...so yea...clones. LOL