The old guys were smarter than most give them credit!

[Patrick Chase]

The way i see it progress is made by building on existing ideas and designs. Make improvements to an existing design by changing and optimizing certain weak links, etc. That's evolutionary development in a nutshell. The problem is that this is also a process that follows the laws of diminishing returns. True innovation on the other hand involves paradigm shifts in ideas. Examples such as vacuum tube to transistor or steam engine to internal combustion or battery to solar cell. Leveraging these paradigm changes is where true progress is made.

Indeed, but there are fundamental limits based on the knowledge capacity of both individuals and groups. We individually and collectively filter "the old knowledge" based on what we think will be most useful going forward in order to make room for the new. Some of my biggest "a ha" moments as an engineer have come when I stumbled on a "useless" old solution whose time had come again for one reason or another (and some of my biggest "d'oh" moments when I failed to recognize such situations, but that's life).

[Lenore Epstein]

[rant]

Smarter? More gifted? I guess DNA sequencing, spectacular advances in astrophysics, getting to the cusp of genetically-based medical treatment, GPS, are just more examples of modern mediocrity. And certainly you can think of no examples of inspired, gifted woodworkers and other craftsmen in our time, while every single one of those "old guys" were superior in every way...

It's no surprise that "young people" don't flock to what used to be called "the trades" when our culture values tidy white collar work over any whiff of manual labor, and cheap functionality in household goods that at one time couldn't be had unless it was made by a craftsman? And how the heck are your "young people" supposed to learn how to use a hammer when they barely know what one looks like, to say nothing of having seen one in use?

A young buck in the 19th century needed and had lots of time and opportunity to develop manual skills because nobody could afford a handyman, craftsmen quickly learned to see and feel a variance of a millimeter because precise standardized measuring tools weren't available, and everyone valued quality hand made household goods because a way to make cheap, functional, and widely available ones hadn't been invented yet. Similarly, today's 20 year old's expertise is in modern technology and all the ways we survive and adapt to a high tech global environment, and like it or not, video games and sitting stock still in front of a computer actually contribute to her understanding of his world. If you think his or her experiences and skills are shallow and useless, that's because what's relevant now wasn't imaginable 20 years ago, to say nothing of 100..

Sorry if this is a bit strident. I'm just so tired of hearing how much better everything used to be. With my genes I for one would be dead several times over if I lived in the old days, and I wouldn't trade my access to an amazing depth of knowledge and variety of human experience for all the handmade stuff in the world.

[/rant]

[Kees Heiden]

Even gaming is a skill that needs quite a bit of training to reach proficiancy. Just a pitty it leads nowhere.

[Stanley Covington]

Admiring the means, methods, hard work, successes, and beautiful creations made by past generations of the human race in the face of crushing adversity and almost total technical ignorance does not take away anything from latter generations, including those in our time. Our forerunners did the best they could, and some of the things they learned and did became the foundations upon which we are building. Or maybe we are just rearranging the furniture....

In our time, the accumulation of knowledge has accelerated, but it did not start with us, nor will it end with us, God willing. Wisdom is the one product of the human experience that cannot be taught, only learned, or discarded. No excess of it around nowadays.

If I can put on my prophecy hat, I predict that future generations 400 years from now will look at our electronics with dismay, but our woodworking handtools and the surviving things we made with them with reverence.

Stan

[Brent Cutshall]

I don't know if they were smarter or not. What I do know is that way back when, they had no power tools so they learned to move wood at about the same rate with an all too mouth watering workshop filled with tools, kinda like me. I guess that makes them either smarter or more "doing it the hard wayish". So thumbs up to them who got by without switches and buttons but still crafted the old world craftsmanship that we have a hard time accomplishing. Not denouncing anybody, I'm just glorifying others.

[Robert Engel]

We are looking back with 21st century eyes. To really understand it we have to know what the world was like then.
Check out this little story about everyday life in an 18th century ww'ing shop.

The craftsman of old used the technology available to them, just like the craftsman of today do.
Their livelihood depended on their skills, work ethic, and productivity. Ever looked at the inside of the front of a 1/2 blind drawer and seen saw kerfs 6" long?
We consider something like that poor craftsmanship but in the day it got the drawer completed faster and nobody was the wiser.

We use the technology available. For example, those of us who want to build a table in less than two weeks use power planers, jointers and TS.
The guys (who I respect) that don't use power tools are doing it out of idealism, not practicality.

So why do I draw the line at CNC carving?

Well, I think there is a line somewhere we cross and can no long say "I made that".
When someone asked me if I carved that, I want to honestly say "yes".

[Bruce Haugen]

Even gaming is a skill that needs quite a bit of training to reach proficiancy. Just a pitty it leads nowhere.

An Air Force rep at the Pentagon once told me that cockpits of their fighters were being designed to more closely resemble the display on flight simulators because that's where a lot of their pilots were learning their initial skills.

[Mike Holbrook]

Like others mention, I think the difference is attributable to different ways of teaching and learning. Namely apprenticeships. Back in the day, if one wanted to learn a "trade" one found a teacher with a great deal of practical experience and worked with them. There seems to have been a more recent historical period during which great value was placed on a general/liberal arts type education which was suppose to provide students an education that was widely applicable. More recently the pendulum seems to be swinging back towards training in specific trades, just different ones.

I think we find this situation here on the forum. We have access to a great deal of written practical information. Still each individual has to actually put tools to wood to learn methods and techniques that work for their individual skill set and tools. The thing that is often missing is seeing skilled craftsmen doing the work in front of our eyes. I went through a period of taking classes in an effort to see in person how to make things work. An apprenticeship is obviously a much longer emersion in the work, that must engrain the skills in muscle and cerebral memory.

[Zach Dillinger]

I am in the process of reading Mortise and Tenon, The Anarchist Design Book and By Hand and Eye. The three go together nicely. What continues to impress me is how the pre-industrial craftsmen and the ancients did what they did, with so little, and made a living doing it.

I am actually coming to realize that they were probably smarter and more gifted than present day generations, who have come to rely on calculators, computers, CNC, and a whole host of measuring devises.

Looking at various builds around the world, I have to ask, how was this done without the aid of electrons or power that we know today. It just amazes me.

Maybe we are not as clever as we sometimes give ourselves credit for.

The only way to learn is to study the old pieces and attempt to replicate the tool marks that you see. Really understand why things look the way they do. Eventually, you will have epiphanies (some minor, some major) that will fundamentally alter the way you work. It's what happened (and is still happening every day) to me. Sometimes a left-over gauge mark isn't a mistake; sometimes a saw overcut is intentional and not a flaw.

[Jim Koepke]

If I can put on my prophecy hat, I predict that future generations 400 years from now will look at our electronics with dismay, but our woodworking handtools and the surviving things we made with them with reverence.

I am using some electronics that is only 8 years old that is obsolete. In the near future I will have to purchase something new to stay on line.

My longest lasting electronics is a transistor radio from the 1960s.

I have a few chairs from the 1950s. I am sure some of my wood working projects will last beyond my lifetime. I doubt if any of my electronic gizmos will be anywhere other than a landfill. The most likely to survive is probably an old 'hot wire' flashlight.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

Sometimes a left-over gauge mark isn't a mistake; sometimes a saw overcut is intentional and not a flaw.

I have seen a few things referring to such. Often when making double blind dovetails the worker would overcut the sawing so anyone repairing the piece in the future could determine how the joint was made and prevent accidental damage.

There is usually a reason for everything. Sadly sometime it is just inexperience or sloppiness.

jtk

[Mike Holbrook]

My computer is sitting on a school teacher's desk from the mid 18th century, made in Glasgow Scotland. It needs a little work but still functions about as well as it did the day it was made.

[Bob Glenn]

My computer is sitting on a school teacher's desk from the mid 18th century, made in Glasgow Scotland. It needs a little work but still functions about as well as it did the day it was made.

The computer or the desk? Curious minds want to know.

[Mike Henderson]

Let's try this out.....A large group of people came upon a river that they needed to cross. Too deep to just wade across, and the wagons and other stuff they were hauling along wouldn't take the wet trip across. They were also other people lurking over there....

The leader of the group comes up to the river bank, turns around, and tells the rest to....just build a bridge. Which they did, in about...48 hours, IIRC......it was strong enough for everything they were hauling to go across with dry feet.

The leader of this group? Julius Gias Ceasar. The river was across the Rhone, if I remember correctly. Those same Roman soldiers build the bridge with just the basic tools they carried along everywhere. No plans were needed, just build the bridge, and carry on.

Try that sort of thing today...lawyers and others will lock it down so fast....you might get the same bridge done today, but it would take 3 years to do...regulations to save us...from us.

Of course, they were a military group, they had soldiers who were the equivalent of our army engineers, there was a war going on, and the bridge only had to last a very short while.

In a similar situation today, the Navy CBs or Army engineers could throw a bridge over a river in a very short time and while people were shooting at them. In fact, they did it MANY times in world war II - the Germans, the Americans, and the Russians.

Some of those bridges were used for a number of years after the war, until permanent bridges could be built.

Mike

[The Roman soldier was more of a construction worker than a soldier. He spent a LOT more time building military fortifications and machines than he did fighting. For a good example of some of the work they did, see the Battle of Alesia which was essentially the last battle in the Gallic Wars.

One thing they taught us in Army OCS that really impressed me was how much could be accomplished by a group. If you looked at the job as something you had to do yourself, it was almost impossible. But the group completed the work in a very short time.]

[Tom Vanzant]

I have furniture pieces from great-grandparents on both sides, some nicer than others, all still in use, horsehair stuffing and all. My favorite is a pie safe dating from the 1860s. It has two pairs of doors with pierced tin panels, and two drawers. All the front wood is black walnut, and the carcass is 1"x14" pine boards stained to match. M/T joints, dovetails, and cut nails of various sizes hold it all together. It spent at least sixty years in a garage and needed "refreshing" and repair to a rotted rear leg and warped door. "Minimal" was key...it was cleaned, not refinished, and still looks it's age. A rat's attempt to gnaw his way in was preserved...a bit of character.