Recommendation for new dovetail saw?

[Simon MacGowen]

His saw was rated best in class by FWW I have one of his saws and is great. Patrick have you even picked one up or is this just your prejudice.

This reminds me of the so many SawStop threads in which people trashed the SawStop for its high prices vs quality and the majority of them had only watched a demo on youtube or in person, but never had used a SawStop.

Cosman saws are just as good as ANY premium saws in the market, but like the SawStop, they are pricey. Would I buy it? Nope as I can say skills are more important than the saw, unless the saw in question is junk. I have used all the well-known saws mentioned here, but the difference is minute in my hand. Ask anyone good at sawing dovetails and most will tell you the same story.

Some dislike the Veritas saws but their prices are unbeatable and they are good saws for dovetailing. If you don't like their non-traditional style, don't go for them; but they can cut perfect dovetails (which again depends on skills not the saw).

Simon

[Nick Stokes]

I've never used the Cosman saw. But I watched the youtube video showing him make it. With that much skill and time involved, he can't charge much less than he does. Cool video by the way.

[Mike Brady]

I saw that video too. Did he ever show the saw being sharpened? I don't think so. Like every tool he demos, he kind of leaves the impression that if you buy it it will work for you like it works for him.

[Patrick Chase]

I've never used the Cosman saw. But I watched the youtube video showing him make it. With that much skill and time involved, he can't charge much less than he does. Cool video by the way.

I've played with a Cosman in a friend's shop once. I thought it was an excellent saw, though my personal preferences clash with a couple aspects of its design. I also think that the $69 Veritas, $125 L-N, and $140 Wentzloff are excellent saws, and therein lies the rub.

As I said previously, backsaws are fundamentally simple tools with less functional (as opposed to aesthetic) differentiation between makers compared to some other tools, and I don't see Cosman bringing anything to the table to justify his asking price. You can get heavy handles and progressive tooth pitch elsewhere, and everything else about that saw is bog standard, nifty marketing video notwithstanding. He makes a big deal of "hand-shaping" his plastic handles in the video, but then only offers 2 sizes (probably because he only has 2 sets of router jigs) and wants extra $$$ for a large handle. Everybody else at his price point offers much more customization, and indeed that's a big part of how they justify their asking prices. He's also not exactly setting the world on fire aesthetically, which is the other typical differentiator in that price range.

The comparison to SawStop actually does an excellent job of illustrating what Cosman lacks. SawStop developed and brought a new technology to market that added otherwise unavailable functionality and therefore value to the tool (and also meant that he needed to recoup significant up-front costs for R&D). The value proposition was and is very clear, and rather different from making basically the same thing in the same way as everybody else and trying to sell it for double the price.

Just because other makers don't feel the need to make a 50-minute promotional video about their manufacturing process doesn't mean they aren't doing similar stuff. Stewie or Ron would be more qualified to comment than I, but I didn't see anything remotely remarkable in that video. Obviously Veritas relies heavily on automated manufacturing to hit their $70 price point, but I doubt that Cosman's process is any different than L-N or Wentzloff.

Even if there is something about Cosman's process that makes his manufacturing cost uniquely high, that doesn't justify a high asking price *unless* it provides some benefit to the customer (customization options, aesthetics, unique functionality as with SawStop, etc). I just don't see where he's doing so.

[Mike Cherry]

Hard to argue against that Patrick. Never held the Cosman dt saw myself. I mentioned earlier that I use the LN dt saw, I forgot to add that I bought my Dad a Veritas dt saw for Father's Day last year. I thought it looked kinda plastic-looking but when I held it, it was a very solid tool. One that I would not hesitate to buy for myself. The price point on it is outstanding and it'd be a great saw to practice filing smaller teeth later on when it gets dull. Kinda hard to file teeth on a 200 dollar dovetail saw if you aren't confident in your abilities.

[Simon MacGowen]

Even if there is something about Cosman's process that makes his manufacturing cost uniquely high, that doesn't justify a high asking price *unless* it provides some benefit to the customer (customization options, aesthetics, unique functionality as with SawStop, etc). I just don't see where he's doing so.

My take is that any maker can justify his or her tools at a price point that people can afford to pay. This is no different from all the luxury cars that we see on the road. A lot of boutique tools fall into this category ... how can one justify, for example, a $120 (?) plane hammer? Many can do fine plane setting with a $10 hammer or a shop-made one.

Well, Cosman seems to have put in place a "mass production" process for his $300 (?) saws , meaning people are willing to fork out that kind money on his saws. I agree the process itself may not justify the prices he asks, but remember his name alone is worth money. Is it worth the extra $100 put on the price tag? It depends on who you talk to...I know owners of his saws would say yes, just as an owner of any Vesper's fine products would about their pricey tools.

Simon

[Patrick Chase]

Hard to argue against that Patrick. Never held the Cosman dt saw myself. I mentioned earlier that I use the LN dt saw, I forgot to add that I bought my Dad a Veritas dt saw for Father's Day last year. I thought it looked kinda plastic-looking but when I held it, it was a very solid tool. One that I would not hesitate to buy for myself. The price point on it is outstanding and it'd be a great saw to practice filing smaller teeth later on when it gets dull. Kinda hard to file teeth on a 200 dollar dovetail saw if you aren't confident in your abilities.

When people ask me for advice on backsaws it usually comes down to: If you want a utilitarian tool and don't care about appearances get the Veritas, provided the ergonomics work. If you want something that looks like a classic backsaw then get an L-N or Wentzloff, with the same caveat. If you're willing to pay $$$ for maximum customization and aesthetics then go to a fully or partially custom maker.

Also, don't pay too much attention to reviews, mine included. IMO a lot of the "goodness" of saws comes down to ergonomics and toothing, and those are both subjective and highly individual preferences.

The spine on the Veritas does indeed look like injection molded plastic because that's exactly what it is, though with high glass fiber and metal powder content for strength and density. If they tried to sell that for $125 I'd be going off on them right now for not being competitive with L-N and Wentzloff (similar functionality, IMO better aesthetics).

I learned (and am learning) filing mostly on my Veritas saws as you describe. The cheaper saws that I'd tried had functional deficiencies (warped plates, etc) that made it harder to tell what I was accomplishing, and I didn't want to hose my "good" saws. I still have never put a file to my Bad Axe. I've tried instead to imitate its toothing on other, cheaper saws.

[Patrick Chase]

My take is that any maker can justify his or her tools at a price point that people can afford to pay. This is no different from all the luxury cars that we see on the road. A lot of boutique tools fall into this category ... how can one justify, for example, a $120 (?) plane hammer? Many can do fine plane setting with a $10 hammer or a shop-made one.

Well, Cosman seems to have put in place a "mass production" process for his $300 (?) saws , meaning people are willing to fork out that kind money on his saws. I agree the process itself may not justify the prices he asks, but remember his name alone is worth money. Is it worth the extra $100 put on the price tag? It depends on who you talk to...I know owners of his saws would say yes, just as an owner of any Vesper's fine products would about their pricey tools.

Indeed. I'm not questioning Rob's judgment in any way - He's clearly figured out how to motivate people to pay top dollar for that saw, so he'd be crazy not to take full advantage.

[paul cottingham]

I'll preface this by saying I love Bad Axe saws (lucked into a sash saw here on the creek) and would probably buy every saw Mark offers if I could afford them. So I would buy one of his Dovetail saws without hesitation, but I am on a pension, so barring winning a lottery I never enter, Marks saws remain but a dream. Having said that, I do own both of the LV offerings, and would recommend them without hesitation. Even with my bad hand, the handle is comfortable, I do need to rest more than most people would normally need to, but that is not because of the handle. If you want a slightly more expensive saw, (but why? Seriously.) I have a LN carcase saw (a gift) that would be a fine dovetail saw, and everybody raves about their DT saw so there you go.

But seriously, unless you have some sort of weird objection to the handle, LV, baby.

[James Waldron]

To follow up on an earlier post, I checked with Dominic Greco at tgiag about a saw plate 3" X 10" for a dovetail saw in 0.015" plate. They've dropped the 0.015" offering for any plates greater than 2" apparently because of QC issues in toothing without distortion of the plate. Looks like I'll be going with 0.020" after all.

For my backsaws, I've adapted the Grammercy handle pattern from their dovetail saw, beefed up a little and dropped the hang angle a bit for a lower downward pressure in the cut. As George Wilson said a few posts back, the original Grammercy seems a bit too delicate and, for me, the hang would have me pressing the saw into the kerf and reduce control a bit.

[lowell holmes]

What is hybrid tooth geometry?

I know what crosscut and rip teeth are.

I also know Tage Frid sharpened all of his saws rip. At the Homestead Heritage classes, the saws were all rip. I'm comfortable cross cutting with a dovetail saw, but I prefer using a crosscut for it.

[Patrick Chase]

What is hybrid tooth geometry?

I know what crosscut and rip teeth are.

I also know Tage Frid sharpened all of his saws rip. At the Homestead Heritage classes, the saws were all rip. I'm comfortable cross cutting with a dovetail saw, but I prefer using a crosscut for it.

"Hybid" baslcally means that the teeth have fleam but not as much as a traditional crosscut saw. Bad Axe uses 10 deg rake, 12 deg fleam for example, vs traditional crosscut filings in the range 15/15 to 20/20.

[lowell holmes]

"Hybid" baslcally means that the teeth have fleam but not as much as a traditional crosscut saw. Bad Axe uses 10 deg rake, 12 deg fleam for example, vs traditional crosscut filings in the range 15/15 to 20/20.

Well, I've been filing with 12 degrees fleam anyway. I was filing hybrid and didn't know it.

Thanks!

[Paul Saffold]

I am right handed but left eye dominate. I have found I have better luck with Japanese saws. I suspect because there is no back to distract the view. I had a Veritas standard dovetail saw. It cut beautifully and the handle fit my hand well, but the big black spline was very distracting. The other western saws I’ve tried were all rehabed garage sale finds. I have 2 Gyokuchos (Razor Saw), a 240 mm dozuki #372. Yes, the dozuki has a folded back and I don’t use it as much. Also a ryoba 210 mm #649 that I have used the most and like. I don’t have any knowledge of the 2 Rockler saws you mention.