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Thread: Part Deux - The Gennou BTS

  1. #31
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    Thanks Stan. I ordered a 225gm Tenryu Tsuchime Shikaku gennou head from So today. It will be interesting to experience the difference to the 375gm, which I have got so used to. It seemed the right thing to do when I realised that the brass chisel hammer (with nylon on the faces) I use for unhooped Western chisels is 8 oz (225gm).

    I'll curve the handle the other way this time!

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  2. #32
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    Thought I would revive this thread since I am interested in parts of the same topic.

    I am interested in types of wood for handles and where to take the wood from. I pruned trees this spring and saved likely looking wood. The wood is largely limbs or the trunks of small trees. I believe I read somewhere that limbs do not make great handles? I suspect that with lighter gennou it may not matter. I also bought handle raw material from So when I ordered a gennou head. The wood looks like a limb to me.

    I have trimmed limbs from apple, oak (white & red), maple, bald cypress, hickory, dogwood, ash logs.... I know that many old tool handles were apple. I have been cutting likely looking limbs from those I pruned this year. I also prune out small trees which leaves me with entire small trunks. Now that I have better splitting tools and skills, I can split straight grained billets from logs. I am trying to decide how much of what to save.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 06-09-2016 at 12:36 AM.

  3. #33
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    A couple of years ago, I made a 375g genno handle out of a small limb from a western live oak. The limb was drying outdoors for probably a couple of years. Just some branch trimmings I had saved and leaned against a wall to dry. Live oak is very tough, but can be brittle. So far it has held up well. Sorry, but I am traveling now, so I can't post a picture. I also recently purchased a Japanese wild cherry branch as a handle for a 250g genno. I have collected other random small limbs from tree trimmings, with the intention of making more handles. If they break, they are relatively easy to replace. As you said, lighter weight genno's will probably be ok.

  4. #34
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    Thanks for your thoughts and corroboration of some of my thoughts David.

    I have plans to move and I am attempting to harvest wood, particularly fruit tree wood from 10-15 year old plants/trees. I say plants because I harvested a dead trunk from a blueberry "shrub" yesterday that seemed quite hard so I saved it too. Rabbit Eye blueberries can get very large. I planted a Bald Cypress many years ago that is now quite large. I think the bald cypress may also be called white cypress...I'm not sure why this tree has lived as it is on the side of a hill that is not always wet, but it has. Lots of knees and everything. Next up will probably be pear trees, maybe more dogwood or Black Locust if I can find any down in the valley.

    I plan to take down a few trees to make usable splits from too. I plan to collect "billets" from splits to have pieces to make chairs from. Smaller pieces may make good tool handles. Split pieces dry faster than I think many people realize, especially if some sort of homemade kiln is used. There is a limit to how much I want to move though. I should add that fruit wood is great for smoking/grilling too.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 06-09-2016 at 10:11 AM.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Thought I would revive this thread since I am interested in parts of the same topic.

    I am interested in types of wood for handles and where to take the wood from. I pruned trees this spring and saved likely looking wood. The wood is largely limbs or the trunks of small trees. I believe I read somewhere that limbs do not make great handles? I suspect that with lighter gennou it may not matter. I also bought handle raw material from So when I ordered a gennou head. The wood looks like a limb to me.

    I have trimmed limbs from apple, oak (white & red), maple, bald cypress, hickory, dogwood, ash logs.... I know that many old tool handles were apple. I have been cutting likely looking limbs from those I pruned this year. I also prune out small trees which leaves me with entire small trunks. Now that I have better splitting tools and skills, I can split straight grained billets from logs. I am trying to decide how much of what to save.
    Mike:

    I can share some guidelines again, and my experience.

    You need a wood that is hard enough to stand the shear forces, but not brittle. Softwoods are typically not good because the fibers compress and the head loosens up over time. Plenty of hardwoods are too brittle. Others have oils that let the head slip off. Some expand and contract too much with humidity changes.

    White oak, either American, European, or Japanese are good, as are hickory and ash and maple, assuming the grain has very little runout. Through-grain is very important.

    Bocote is not good. Teak is not good. Ebony and rosewood are not good. I made a handle from Japanese mountain cherry, but found it to be too soft.

    I have made several handles from Japanese black persimmon, and have been very pleased with their performance. I recently made a handle from Osage Orange. I have not used it much, but I think it will be excellent, especially after the color mellows out. i now understand why they make bows from it.

    I suspect most fruitwoods would perform very well. If the blank has a center, I would be careful to confirm it has reached equilibrium moisture content and is done splitting and cracking.

    I have been told by the old boys here in Japan that the two best woods for tool handles are a popular flowering shrub called Utsugi (Deutzia crenata https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutzia), and another wood called Ushikoroshi (Rhamnus davurica var.nipponica), which translates to "Cow Killer." After much searching, I recently acquired samples of each wood, but have not done anything with them yet.

    Interestingly, I bought the ushikoroshi from a steel retailer here in Tokyo that also sells mining tools (picks and rock hammers etc.). The owner of the store confirmed that this wood makes the best handles. A old carpenter friend showed me his gennou handle made from utsugi, and said it is superior to ushikoroshi, but more difficult to find in larger diameters. I am not aware of commercial sources, but hope to develop some in the future.

    You should have no difficulty finding a satisfactory wood wherever you live.

    Regards,

    Stan
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #36
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    Stanley,

    Thanks once more for sharing your experience.

    Mostly I have been trying to decide which fruit wood to use in the smoker/grill and which to save. I am also aware of the opportunities for fruit wood north of where I currently live, in the north Georgia mountains. Lots of apple orchards in the area. I find experimenting with different woods and finding where they may best be used very interesting. I would love to experiment with those woods you mention when you find a way to offer them.

    Maybe when you visit your sister in Cedar Town we can share a bottle of wine or port in the North Ga. mountains.

  7. #37
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    OK Stanley, I orientated the gennou head the correct way this time!

    A new Tenryu Tsuchime Shikaku head from So, weighing 225gm, which is the weight I have come to prefer for bench chisels. The 375gm Tenryuu Daruma was a little too much for lighter work.

    I made the handle an 1" shorter than the 375gm as it does not require as much downforce.





    Comparison of the two handles ..



    And the 275gm on its own. The handle is Fiddleback Jarrah ..



    Regards from Perth

    Derek





  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    OK Stanley, I orientated the gennou head the correct way this time!

    A new Tenryu Tsuchime Shikaku head from So, weighing 225gm, which is the weight I have come to prefer for bench chisels. The 375gm Tenryuu Daruma was a little too much for lighter work.

    I made the handle an 1" shorter than the 375gm as it does not require as much downforce.





    Comparison of the two handles ..



    And the 275gm on its own. The handle is Fiddleback Jarrah ..



    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Beautiful work and beautiful wood! I love the fiddleback Jarrah's appearance. Please educate us about this wood. Hardness, oilyness, friction, vibration transmission, brittleness, etc..

    How did you determine the handle lengths?

    Very attractive heads too. Are the eyes straight and un-twisted?

    Thanks,

    Stan

  9. #39
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    Thanks Stan.

    All is nice and straight, and the balance is good.

    By "eyes" do you mean the sides/tenon into the head? Here is the other side - a little of the tenon showing. I know you like them flush with the head. I still prefer a little peeking out (but made this much shorter this time around) ..



    This Jarrah is not dry and brittle, as much of the stuff I use for furniture. It has been air dried, is close grained, and I sensed more elasticity when shaving it to shape. The grain is interlocked, but overall, the figure had a natural curve that I could follow.

    Length? The 375 gm handle is a good one. I just got lucky there (guided by instinct and not a formula). I decided to make this one a little shorter as that would promote a little more control. I will know more when I have used it enough.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Thanks Stan.

    All is nice and straight, and the balance is good.

    By "eyes" do you mean the sides/tenon into the head? Here is the other side - a little of the tenon showing. I know you like them flush with the head. I still prefer a little peeking out (but made this much shorter this time around) ..



    This Jarrah is not dry and brittle, as much of the stuff I use for furniture. It has been air dried, is close grained, and I sensed more elasticity when shaving it to shape. The grain is interlocked, but overall, the figure had a natural curve that I could follow.

    Length? The 375 gm handle is a good one. I just got lucky there (guided by instinct and not a formula). I decided to make this one a little shorter as that would promote a little more control. I will know more when I have used it enough.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek
    Thanks. Yes, "eye" is the term used i the US for the tenon hole for axes and hammers, etc.

    Stan

  11. #41
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    Don't know how I missed this from May, but thanks Stan. I enjoyed your first post and this adds some great information. I was interested in the discussion on wood types for handles. Thinking about what might be easily available to me, I spied a crabapple in dire need of prunning. Do you think a branch from this might be worth a go?
    Really appreciate the insight and time it takes for you to share it.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Mueller View Post
    Don't know how I missed this from May, but thanks Stan. I enjoyed your first post and this adds some great information. I was interested in the discussion on wood types for handles. Thinking about what might be easily available to me, I spied a crabapple in dire need of prunning. Do you think a branch from this might be worth a go?
    Really appreciate the insight and time it takes for you to share it.
    I have never used crabapple, but so long as the piece you use has little grain runout and is at or below equilibrium moisture content, it should work just fine.

    Stan

  13. #43
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    gennouhandles.jpg 300g Hiroki.jpeg click to enlarge

    Trying out a few different handle shapes, with more or less curve in the handle, various ways to finish the ends, various grip shapes.....The 300g Hiroki handle has a coat of WATCO. The 450g Tenryu is a piece of what I think is white oak that has been stable for a year or so. The 225g Tenryu head is on a lighter piece of apple.

    I finally decided the apple wood I harvested for my gennou handles is dry enough to use. I have been impressed with how well the heads seem to grip the wood. It does take a fair amount of coaxing to get one of those heads off while working the handle down to a tight fit.

    I am wondering how close, to the top of the head, the handle needs to go? I believe Stanley has mentioned leaving the handle material a little shy of the top of the opening. Not being sure how much the wood may move I have been trying to leave the heads a little shy of the top, at least until I am confident the wood is very stable. I'm just not sure how far from the top to leave them? I am guessing the 225g needs to be closer than the 450g. The heads seem to be relatively solidly seated after they get past the mid point, slightly convex area, in the middle of the handle recess. I am wondering if say 1/4 to 3/8" from the top is reasonable early on or whether I need to get them within 1/16 or so right away?

    The Hiroki head was easier to seat the handle in. I imagine this relates to Stanley's comments about the better heads having the most precisely made handle recesses. I am having a little more difficulty with the Tenryu heads. The Tenryus are more difficult to get past the convex area in the middle. I suspect that the convex area is a little larger or cruder.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 07-22-2016 at 10:52 AM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    gennouhandles.jpg 300g Hiroki.jpeg click to enlarge

    I finally decided the apple wood I harvested for my gennou handles is dry enough to use. I have been impressed with how well the heads seem to grip the wood. It does take a fair amount of coaxing to get one of those heads off while working the handle down to a tight fit.

    I am wondering how close, to the top of the head, the handle needs to go? I believe Stanley has mentioned leaving the handle material a little shy of the top of the opening. Not being sure how much the wood may move I have been trying to leave the heads a little shy of the top, at least until I am confident the wood is very stable. I'm just not sure how far from the top to leave them? I am guessing the 225g needs to be closer than the 450g. The heads seem to be relatively solidly seated after they get past the mid point, slightly convex area, in the middle of the handle recess. I am wondering if say 1/4 to 3/8" from the top is reasonable early on or whether I need to get them within 1/16 or so right away?
    Mike:

    Very nice work!

    Glad the apple wood is gripping the head tightly.

    Monitor the butt closely over the next few weeks. Not sure how long it has been since you cut the wood, but if the moisture content causes problems, heaven forfend, the handles will start to crack at the butt. If this occurs, it is common for the corresponding shrinkage in the tenon to cause the head to loosen up.

    I like to leave my handles approximately one half the thickness of the tenon recessed in the eye when the gennou is new. But it doesn't always turn out that way. There are no rules, only what works for you. It sounds like you grasp the logic behind this detail as it was first taught to me. Nothing at all wrong with the handle being flush with the eye. The sight of a handle sticking out past the eye always bothered me like a baseball cap worn sideways, but that is just my opinion.

    Stan

  15. #45
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    I have been working the handles and then bagging them with shavings. They have not shown any cracking for a month or more so I think they will be good. These are more of an experiment anyway, so if they crack I want be too disappointed. I still have the piece of gumi (sp?) I got from So. I just roughed it out, saving it for when I know what I like.

    A little further along now..
    3 gennou.jpg

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