Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 105

Thread: Clearance in BD plane

  1. #46
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Milton, GA
    Posts
    3,213
    Blog Entries
    1
    Lately I have been more in Warren and Steve's frame of mind regarding planes. I have been thinking about reducing how many I work with. I find that I generally do better work with my LV, LA Jack. I think the reason has more to do with familiarity over a decade or more rather than it being the absolute best plane in all situations.

    I decided to delve into Stanley planes, mostly as an exploration into chip breakers. I was determined to figure out how to get them to perform for me. After I got familiar enough with these planes to use them decently and started using my BU planes again, I figured out I was still better with my BU planes because they just felt more familiar in actual use. Then I tried a Veritas Custom #4. This plane feels familiar, probably due to its low weight\balance, handle options and adjustment system and it has a chip breaker. Maybe Rob at LV knows a thing or two about his customer base and how to transfer them to a new plane design.

    I liked the option LV offers to order frogs for their custom planes at custom angles. Reading Derek's thread on his custom #4, I found that he ordered his with a custom 42 degree bevel. He mentions that one of the reasons he did this was an old post from Warren in which he apparently said his favorite, or one of his favorite, Stanley planes had/has a custom 42 degree frog. Being more familiar with BU planes with combined 25-30+12= total 37-42 degree bevels I decided to give the 42 degree frog a try. Derek mentioned that he felt that the chip breaker made it possible to handle more difficult grain with lower angled frogs. A frog that could handle the maximum amount of different grain situations was attractive to me.

    I am a little lost in all the numbers above and wonder what the ultimate point might be? Particularly could 42 minus 30 or 12 degrees be a "sweet spot" for BD frogs, sharpening angles? It seems to be working well for me.

    The other question I have has to do with grinding 30 degree "hollow" bevels on blades in BD planes. Many people hand hone these hollow ground blades. I suspect one of the reasons it works is honing these blades makes some "degree" of micro bevel. The two sides of the hollow, of course, keep the edge registered to the stone at the correct angle. Maybe it is possible to hand hone a micro bevel this way without resorting to a honing jig? The micro bevel created is certainly very small but I suspect it is also relatively accurate. Honing an accurate, small micro bevel quickly and easily at a reliable, helpful angle may be part of the reason for this methods success.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-24-2016 at 10:57 AM.

  2. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ste-Julienne, Qc, Canada
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Kees Heiden View Post

    PS: and maybe you should repeat the test, just to be sure.
    That's exactly what I had in mind and it doesn't take that long anyway.

  3. #48
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    You should write this down in an as complete matter as possible and then we could see if we could put it somewhere for reference.
    Maybe we could get one of the moderators to archive it in the Neanderthal wisdom/FAQs.

    I am a little lost in all the numbers above and wonder what the ultimate point might be? Particularly could 42 minus 30 or 12 degrees be a "sweet spot" for BD frogs, sharpening angles? It seems to be working well for me.
    Mike, I enjoyed reading your musings on the LV Custom planes. I am so used to using a 25º bevel on my planes my thought for a custom frog would be at 37º. 40º would likely be more practical if one were to use a secondary bevel.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  4. #49
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ste-Julienne, Qc, Canada
    Posts
    194
    Mike,
    I do own a LV LA jointer and a Stanley no.7. I'm more comfortable with the LV plane and hardly use the Stanley.

    The tests that I have done needs to be reviewed by someone else but, in the mean time, at this stage I would sum it up to this:

    - older blades (Stanley as an example gave me 137 shavings) do not last as long as A-2 or PM-V11 where I got 442 shaving. That's quite a gap.
    - a RA of 20 degree will outlast 11 degree by 70% approx.

    All of this in relatively soft wood. The first test was done using yellow birch and the RA test on BC Fir.

  5. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    twomiles from the "peak of Ohio
    Posts
    12,120
    Been using this Stanley #5 since it was rehabbed about a month ago. Haven't needed to sharpen it back up, yet....
    jack plane.jpg
    The board was rough sawn pine, and it is now S4S using that Type 17 plane...been making a lot of shavings lately. too
    pile of shavings.jpg
    Don't have the time to waste by only getting see-through shavings......would take all day to do this one board, instead of....10 minutes.

  6. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Milton, GA
    Posts
    3,213
    Blog Entries
    1
    Jim, I do tend to muse a good deal. My experiment with Stanley planes did give me a better feel about why people like them. My continuing issue has to do with a mind set regarding blade adjustment systems for these two types of planes. With the Veritas/Norris system I put the plane under my magnifying light and when it looks like it might have moved I stop adjusting. With the Stanley system it feels like I have to turn the wheel for several days before it actually starts to engage.... Ohhk, I may be exercising a little "poetic license".

    I like the feel of the Stanley handles, but the hand position is higher than I am use to. I did order my Custom #4 with a traditional handle. I like the LV traditional handle as it feels more like the Stanley but it seems to be designed to be easier to use with a lower grip too.. I totally believe that all of my "issues" with the Stanley planes result from preconceived notions and experience with adjustments\balance that are at opposite extremes. The balance and adjustments are so far apart I can see why many people seem to like one and dislike the other. I am glad to have the Custom LV option as it strikes me as a compromise in quite a few ways.

    Normand, thanks for providing the abridged version. The RA is the difference between the frog angle and the angle the blade is sharpend at? The sharpening angle is what throws me. I understand that a micro bevel is part of the sharpened angle. I'm not sure I know how to figure out what the angle of my hollow ground blade with a hand honed microlevel is.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-24-2016 at 6:36 PM.

  7. #52
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    With the Stanley system it feels like I have to turn the wheel for several days before it actually starts to engage.... Ohhk, I may be exercising a little "poetic license".
    The backlash on the old Bailey adjuster is legendary. For adjusting and setting the lateral I usually use a piece of scrap to set everything. With the plane on the scrap it is slowly moved forward while turning the depth adjustment. When it starts to take a shaving the lateral is checked and adjusted as needed. Then the blade can be advance a bit for the desired shaving thickness.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  8. #53
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Livonia, Michigan
    Posts
    780
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    The real point is: can you USE your tools to make beautiful things. Do you know design? Can you draw(knowing design does not mean you can draw). Can you do accurate work? And several others.
    Actually, no.

    -Tom

  9. #54
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Normand Leblanc View Post

    The results for a 0.002" shaving are:
    sharp. Angle Relief angle # shavings
    Test 1 25 20 120
    Test 2 28 17 95
    Test 3 31 14 90
    Test 4 34 11 70
    Test 5 37 8 35
    .
    This table makes no sense. How are you measuring these two angles? Got a diagram?

  10. #55
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Ste-Julienne, Qc, Canada
    Posts
    194
    There must be a misunderstanding somewhere...

    I use a plane with a 45 degree frog then, as Test 1, I sharpen the blade at 25 degree. That leave 20 degree for the relief angle.

  11. #56
    Really interesting results, Normand. Thanks for taking the time to do the test and list the results here.

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,469
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Holbrook View Post
    Lately I have been more in Warren and Steve's frame of mind regarding planes. I have been thinking about reducing how many I work with. I find that I generally do better work with my LV, LA Jack. I think the reason has more to do with familiarity over a decade or more rather than it being the absolute best plane in all situations.

    I decided to delve into Stanley planes, mostly as an exploration into chip breakers. I was determined to figure out how to get them to perform for me. After I got familiar enough with these planes to use them decently and started using my BU planes again, I figured out I was still better with my BU planes because they just felt more familiar in actual use. Then I tried a Veritas Custom #4. This plane feels familiar, probably due to its low weight\balance, handle options and adjustment system and it has a chip breaker. Maybe Rob at LV knows a thing or two about his customer base and how to transfer them to a new plane design.

    I liked the option LV offers to order frogs for their custom planes at custom angles. Reading Derek's thread on his custom #4, I found that he ordered his with a custom 42 degree bevel. He mentions that one of the reasons he did this was an old post from Warren in which he apparently said his favorite, or one of his favorite, Stanley planes had/has a custom 42 degree frog. Being more familiar with BU planes with combined 25-30+12= total 37-42 degree bevels I decided to give the 42 degree frog a try. Derek mentioned that he felt that the chip breaker made it possible to handle more difficult grain with lower angled frogs. A frog that could handle the maximum amount of different grain situations was attractive to me.

    I am a little lost in all the numbers above and wonder what the ultimate point might be? Particularly could 42 minus 30 or 12 degrees be a "sweet spot" for BD frogs, sharpening angles? It seems to be working well for me.

    The other question I have has to do with grinding 30 degree "hollow" bevels on blades in BD planes. Many people hand hone these hollow ground blades. I suspect one of the reasons it works is honing these blades makes some "degree" of micro bevel. The two sides of the hollow, of course, keep the edge registered to the stone at the correct angle. Maybe it is possible to hand hone a micro bevel this way without resorting to a honing jig? The micro bevel created is certainly very small but I suspect it is also relatively accurate. Honing an accurate, small micro bevel quickly and easily at a reliable, helpful angle may be part of the reason for this methods success.
    Going a step further than the Custom #4 is my Custom #7. The #4 has a 42 degree frog. The #7 has a 40 degree frog. Both have blades with 30 degree bevels on PM-V11 steel. This leaves a clearance angle of 10 degrees on the #7.

    Prior to this #7, my go-to plane for traversing (planing across the grain) was the LV LA Jack with a 25 degree bevel (creating a 37 degree cutting angle, with a 12 degree clearance angle). Now I can plane across the grain with the #7 at a similarly low cutting angle (40 degrees), which produces a smoother surface finish than a plane with a 45 degrees or greater bed/cutting angle.





    The chipbreaker means that I could go directly to end grain with the same performance expectation ...





    I know that planing interlocked face grain would be similarly stress-free.

    One size fits all.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    5,582
    Quote Originally Posted by Normand Leblanc View Post
    There must be a misunderstanding somewhere...

    I use a plane with a 45 degree frog then, as Test 1, I sharpen the blade at 25 degree. That leave 20 degree for the relief angle.
    Oh, I see it now. Thanks for clarifying. For some crazy reason I was trying to understand some sort of secondary bevel angle as being the relief angle.

    So, what do you think is limiting the number of shavings you take with a bevel angle of 34 where you got 70 shavings as compared to 25 degrees where you got 120 shavings. This seems opposite the typical convention of a sharper angle wearing down faster due to less material.
    Last edited by Pat Barry; 05-25-2016 at 8:08 AM.

  14. #59
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Longview WA
    Posts
    27,347
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Barry View Post
    Oh, I see it now. Thanks for clarifying. For some crazy reason I was trying to understand some sort of secondary bevel angle as being the relief angle.

    So, what do you think is limiting the number of shavings you take with a bevel angle of 34 where you got 70 shavings as compared to 25 degrees where you got 120 shavings. This seems opposite the typical convention of a sharper angle wearing down faster due to less material.
    It seems it is more a problem of the relief angle diminishing with wear as opposed to a problem of edge wear as the blade dulls.

    The actual edge may have deteriorated more at 25º. At 35º the wear reduces the relief angle to the point of not being able to stay in the wood.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  15. #60
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Dublin, CA
    Posts
    4,119
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    It seems it is more a problem of the relief angle diminishing with wear as opposed to a problem of edge wear as the blade dulls.

    The actual edge may have deteriorated more at 25º. At 35º the wear reduces the relief angle to the point of not being able to stay in the wood.

    jtk
    Except of course that that's not how it works in reality.

    Take a close look at the micrographs Kees posted several updates back. Wear causes a very small (tenths of an mm at most) zone of ZERO clearance to form behind the edge, and it does so regardless of the initial clearance of the blade.

    This is actually extremely simple common sense. Imagine taking the corner of a piece of metal to sandpaper at varying angles. If you tilt it at 10 deg the sandpaper will abrade a 10 deg bevel (i.e. zero "clearance") on the corner. If you tilt it at 20 deg, then the sandpaper will abrade a 20 deg bevel (zero "clearance" again) on the corner. Why should blade wear be any different?

    Where clearance angle probably does make some difference is in how quickly that flat spot grows. Obviously as you tip the piece of metal further on edge that forces you to abrade away more material for any fixed size of the flat spot. I suspect that benefit is second-order, though.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 05-25-2016 at 3:20 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •