New shop - 480/240 3~ and 110 1~

[Justin Ludwig]

I'm building a new shop on my property. The power company came out yesterday and staked for a new pole so I can have 3~ power. I asked him how they wire it, Wye/Wye, Wye/Delta etc. He said typically Wye/Wye but they would wire it how I want. I'm getting enough power for 150HP at 480V 3~.

My current tool set is all single phase 120/240 stuff. Biggest motor is 5hp. That's about to change and I'll be upgrading all I can to 3~, but it won't happen overnight. I'll be stepping down from 480 3~ to 240 3~ to 240/120 1~. I'm still hunting electricians that are qualified to wire this configuration, but I'd like to not be completely ignorant when I choose one.

What configuration would be best? Wye/Delta? Wye/Wye? What are some other things pertinent that I should know when hunting electricians?

Gotta start learning somewhere, right? I've been reading online, but it can get confusing fast.

[Wayne Waldner]

Since most of your current equipment is single phase 120, why not get 120/208 3-phase and step up in the event you need 480? Wondering because I am contemplating getting 3phase service myself.
wayne

[Justin Ludwig]

480 3~ is imminent. Wide belt, DC's, heat and air unit, future tools. Most of my tools are 220-230V. I'll need 110 for hand tools, charging stations, and the Tigerstop (which can't be powered by the high leg branch of a 3~ set up).

[Frank Pratt]

Wye is more versatile because you get 277V as well as 480V & it just means adding a neutral.. If it's a large shop you can use 277V lighting & use fewer circuits. If it's only motors that will use the higher voltage, then there's not much need for 277V

But around here (Alberta), any 3 ph. service will be wye automatically. It's been decades since a utility would connect a delta service. So you have the main service disconnect, metering equipment & then a 277/480V panel. From that panel, you feed a transformer that will be 480V delta primary to 120/208V wye on the secondary.

Unless he/she has only done residential work all their life, any certified electrician will be qualified to do that work. You just need to find one that you are comfortable with & offers a fair price. It might be worth while paying an engineer to generate a basic set of drawings & specs. That way you can get a few prices knowing that everyone is quoting on the same thing.

[Justin Ludwig]

Unless he/she has only done residential work all their life, any certified electrician will be qualified to do that work. You just need to find one that you are comfortable with & offers a fair price. It might be worth while paying an engineer to generate a basic set of drawings & specs. That way you can get a few prices knowing that everyone is quoting on the same thing.

I've spoke with 2 electricians so far. One is a buddy that is too far away to do the work but he pretty much echoed everything you just said. The other is a local I met during a cabinet install and he said he only does residential. The power company gave me the number of a gentlemen who is the head electrician at Nidec in Mena. If anyone knows about 3~ and step down requirements around here - I'd said he would be the best shot.

[Mike Heidrick]

How big a new shop are you building? Congrats on it btw!! Are you considering just doing it yourself?

[Justin Ludwig]

Minimum size is 40x60x10 with scissor truss on a 40x80 slab (roof over the remaining 20'). Depending on the bid I may enclose the whole thing. It will be fully insulated and temp controlled. Because I'm so busy with work and my National Guard summer camp is coming up, I'm hiring a builder to contract the dirt, footing, slab, plumbing, and getting it dried in. I'll contract the HVAC, insulation, electric and do the topping out myself.

I know the power I'm bringing in will cost a bit more upfront for things - but I'm look 20+ years down the road and will save big on utilities.

[Thomas Bank]

I know the power I'm bringing in will cost a bit more upfront for things - but I'm look 20+ years down the road and will save big on utilities.

The thing that stopped me on 3~ for my shop was the demand charges - basically, charging you for the maximum you’ll use in a given billing cycle. That’s ok if you’re a business and your use is consistent day to day, but one weekend spent welding out in my shop would set the cost for the entire billing cycle.

[Justin Ludwig]

The thing that stopped me on 3~ for my shop was the demand charges - basically, charging you for the maximum you’ll use in a given billing cycle. That’s ok if you’re a business and your use is consistent day to day, but one weekend spent welding out in my shop would set the cost for the entire billing cycle.

I'm a 2-man cabinet shop. Their demand minimum is $150 a month and $12.50/m service fee. My house is more than that in usage so I don't think my shop will have a problem hitting that number. Even IF I had a slow month and didn't make the usage - it's worth it for me. The equipment I need and can buy on the used market to stay competitive demands 3~.

[Thomas Bank]

Yep, as mentioned, if you’re a commercial shop it makes sense. For me, my shop use adds $50 a month to my household electric bill if I have a couple crazy fabrication weekends.

[Rollie Meyers]

If you do not have the load, would be better off with 208Y/120V rather then 480Y/277V, 480 volt gear costs more & transformers have losses, the money spent for 480/277V, panel board(s). transformer(s), 208/120V panel(s), pipe and wire, will be substantial. Having 480V for the sake of having it does not always make economic sense.

[Justin Ludwig]

If you do not have the load, would be better off with 208Y/120V rather then 480Y/277V, 480 volt gear costs more & transformers have losses, the money spent for 480/277V, panel board(s). transformer(s), 208/120V panel(s), pipe and wire, will be substantial. Having 480V for the sake of having it does not always make economic sense.

Rollie, thanks for the heads up. I will definitely be purchasing equipment that justifies the need. I have a growing cabinet shop. Can you expound on the losses of the transformers? I understand that if one transformer or line drops, then I'll get a voltage loss until it's fixed. Other concerns?

[Rollie Meyers]

Rollie, thanks for the heads up. I will definitely be purchasing equipment that justifies the need. I have a growing cabinet shop. Can you expound on the losses of the transformers? I understand that if one transformer or line drops, then I'll get a voltage loss until it's fixed. Other concerns?

How big a service are you proposing? Once you cross the 1000 ampere and larger 480Y/277V barrier then the NEC requires ground fault protection on the main, that adds more costs, as to transformers, any of them are going to have losses that you get to pay for 24/7, how much is going to depend on the transformer & how efficient it is, and 480V is not a DIY thing,480V arc flash is hotter then the surface of the sun, and if it happens, your better off dead. Anyway one looks at it, there is going to be high costs, load calculations are needed, and if the service is large enough, engineering could be required.

[Martin Wasner]

800 amps of 480 goes a very long ways. With an electric boiler pulling almost 100amps alone, I will still have a lot of extra capacity in my new shop for equipment. I have enough equipment to keep five bodies in motion, my new building will have the space to make that happen. With an 800 amp, 480v service I should be able to double that.

Yep, 480 has costs. But it's the best route in the long run if you have the draw.

[Steven Wayne]

If you can get it, I would go with a 240v high leg delta. You have 240v 3 phase as well as 120v single phase on the same service. Run a standard single phase panel and a 3 phase panel. Best setup out there!!