Another jointing thread, wood that is not dimensioned

[Brian Holcombe]

Riving stock should be producing straight grained boards. I was under the impression that was the great benefit of riven stock. I like VG lumber a lot, basically the closest I can get to that ideal without felling trees myself.

Mike, a pair a winding stocks does not find the highs on an edge, it's used at the ends of the board to see if there is any 'wind' or twist to the face in question. It's the only way I'm aware of, other than using a known flat reference, to check for twist.

I do as Prashun does on small parts, using a section of my bench as a flat reference. For thin/ small pieces it is great.

If you have a few hours (or days) read through some of my blog posts as I routinely go over making original reference faces in rough sawn stock. The photo essays may help offer a new perspective.

[Phil Mueller]

Mike, I'll share the bench top shooting board I rigged up. I actually made this long ago to saw a straight edge on rough stock through my table saw. But I'm finding it works well for shooting.

The base is plywood with two blocks attached and clamps attached to the blocks. I clamp this to the bench up against my planning stop (secured in the leg vise).

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I then use a piece of 1/4" scrap to raise the height of the piece I'm working on (I have a few different widths as needed).

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Put the piece I'm working on on top of that, clamp it down, and shoot away. So far, so good.

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[Luke Dupont]

Mike, take a look at these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojeul33vXL4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cl5Srx-Ru_U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTc_vE8kYHE

Take any twist or cup out of the face, flatten it, and you're good to go. You don't need any other surface to reference off of. Just winding sticks and a straight edge - the face only needs to be square to itself. You can do this very accurately by eye; winding sticks will magnify any error in twist, and the straight edge will either rock, if there is a hump, or have light underneath it if cupped.

I have used this method a number of times, often working on the floor without a bench, and have gotten a flatter surface than either my kitchen floor, or my concrete patio, apparently. The tipping method (seeing if the stock rocks on two points) can help you identify twist, but you can get much straighter by eye - make sure to continually rotate your board if and see if it is still racking on the same two points off of the surface you presume to be flat. If those points change as you rotate the board to different orientations on that surface, then your board is actually flatter than the surface you're comparing it to.

So, in short: Use a straight edge, and winding sticks. Sight down the board. Take out any humps or valleys or twist. Do that, and you will have a very flat surface that is square to itself. Then, square up one of the edges to that original surface. Then flatten the other side, and mark the remaining edge from the other edge that you made.

It's not hard to flatten a piece that is not too long or wide and take the twist and cup out. As you get to very wide boards, or very long boards, it becomes more difficult, and might be worthwhile to actually rip it in half, or cut it to length (if it's not already to the finish length you need).

[Mike Holbrook]

Thanks for all the good, helpful suggestions.
Brian I have been visiting your Blog. I was watching your most recent video and reading last night, great resource to have. Luke I will be watching the videos you linked us to this AM. Phil, I like your design for a long bench top shooting board.

I am working on something for shooting/jointing using my Festool tables. I should be able to use the, hinged\height adjustable Festool cutting guide/straightedge that lives on my main Festool table, with supporting blocks, as a shooting board for any board under 28". The Festool clamps will clamp objects: from above the top, along the surface, or along the side rails. I should be able to come up with a jig for shooting and jointing boards longer than 28" using a Festool guide rail.

Somehow I have misplaced my Veritas aluminum straight edge, may not have made it back from a class or three I have taken in the last year. I am wondering about the straight edge/winding sticks Brian uses in his video. Maybe they are the Veritas or Starrett Steel Straightedges? The Starrett straightedges are the most accurate, of course, but they are also very pricey. The metal winding sticks I have are only 18". I am thinking about buying a couple Veritas 3' straightedges. Brian apparently uses his long straightedges for both purposes and it looks like the longer length may accentuate error.

PS
Luke, I found videos by the same three presenters you did when I searched, but you found more pertinent videos, thanks. I am impressed that Brian shaved for his video as I have taken a break from the razor. I was a little disappointed that he was not wearing tweeds or his new Japanese planing shoes. My duck feet do not fit in anything with pointed toes, so I am more of a Chacos kind of guy.

[Brian Holcombe]

3' sticks are really too long for edge jointing but I've just been too lazy to make up a set for edge jointing so I just use my panel/table jointing sticks for that. Warren suggested 16" (IIRC) and I would use that size for edge jointing.

They also don't need to be precision steel, precision wood is just as well. If you have some VG stock of something stable use that to create a set of winding sticks and you'll be better off.

The reason I have those is that I was attempting to get a straight edge from precision steel via McMaster carr. They promised a certain degree of tolerance and upon checking out of the three that I received one was .001" over it's length, one was .005" and was .020"! The .020" is a spare that I really never use anymore, the .005" is my winding stick and the .001" is my straight edge.

I have a real hardened steel straight edge for more important work (plane bodies) which require extreme precision (as far as woodworking is concerned) and since the smallest tolerance I work with in woodworking is .003" the .001" straight edge is plenty good.

Glad you are enjoying the blog! Hah, yeah I did shave before one of the videos. Those videos pre-date the jikatabi so you will see them very soon (I'm about 3 weeks ahead of the blog at this point)...and since it's hot outside now you may have to settle for madras plaid .

[Mike Holbrook]

Good information Brian. I will change the 3' straightedges to 2', on the LV order I am working on. I thought about just making wood straightedges/winding sticks. I just have too many projects working and I am facing a move to lesser conditions, at least until I finish whatever new shop I end up with. I like the idea of a heavier steel straightedge too. My dogs are well trained but they have this obsession with any stick I touch, actually part of the training.

I will be looking forward to seeing the Madras and jikatabi in future videos. Better get back to my list.

[Warren Mickley]

I have used winding sticks of ribbon mahogany since 1978. They are 16 inches long, 1 1/4 high and 11/32 thick. Roubo gives these dimensions: 18 inches long, 1 1/2 to 2 inches high and 3 or 4 lines thick (1/4 to 1/3 inches). I think if they are too long you have to get pretty far away to see the whole length of the stick. Also they are more clumsy to place on a narrow edge.

[Mike Holbrook]

Hmm, thanks Warren. Maybe the nesting set I got from Lee Valley is just what I need. I probably need to adjust my directional lights and position myself better, probably just needs more work. I'm on it!

PS
Right Warren, not having used the LV winding sticks for a while I was not using them "correctly" and I jumped to cause seeing Brian's video. What I have works great, after I took the time to figure out how to use them again! I still have a little trouble sighting along two long objects at once...it will get better with practice.

The Festool saw guides turn out to be a needless complication. Simply clamping my piece to a plywood or MDF off cut on the Festool saw/glue table I just made makes a quick and easy jointing jig. Festool MDF tops are very flat and a LV,LA Jack runs against the slick top very easily.

Now I can get either a surface or an edge level much easier, even if I do not have a good one to start. Once I get the one good edge or surface the reference surface makes everything else easier.

[Steve Voigt]

3' sticks are really too long for edge jointing but I've just been too lazy to make up a set for edge jointing so I just use my panel/table jointing sticks for that. Warren suggested 24" (IIRC) and I would use that size for edge jointing.

They also don't need to be precision steel, precision wood is just as well. If you have some VG stock of something stable use that to create a set of winding sticks and you'll be better off.

Brian, I just went and watched your video (all of them actually). You do great work, but I think your winding sticks could use an upgrade. The long sticks are great for flattening your bench, a large table top, etc, but as you already acknowledged, shorter sticks would be better for smaller faces and for edges. I also think you would enjoy using wood sticks a lot more. I don't know about you, but I might pick up my sticks 20 times or more during a long session of preparing stock. I think steel sticks would wear me out!
however, the most important thing for me is having some kind of contrasting inlay at the ends of the far board. My sticks are really ugly--they are Baltic birch ply, and the "inlay" is black sharpie! 😂 But adding that made a huge difference, and I can't imagine working without it. you might consider taking a sharpie and making 1/2" x 1" squares a couple inches from each end, just as an experiment. You obviously are able to do very precise work with your sticks, but I think you will notice a difference.

[Brian Holcombe]

I have used winding sticks of ribbon mahogany since 1978. They are 16 inches long, 1 1/4 high and 11/32 thick. Roubo gives these dimensions: 18 inches long, 1 1/2 to 2 inches high and 3 or 4 lines thick (1/4 to 1/3 inches). I think if they are too long you have to get pretty far away to see the whole length of the stick. Also they are more clumsy to place on a narrow edge.

Thanks Warren, apologies for misquoting.

Brian, I just went and watched your video (all of them actually). You do great work, but I think your winding sticks could use an upgrade. The long sticks are great for flattening your bench, a large table top, etc, but as you already acknowledged, shorter sticks would be better for smaller faces and for edges. I also think you would enjoy using wood sticks a lot more. I don't know about you, but I might pick up my sticks 20 times or more during a long session of preparing stock. I think steel sticks would wear me out!
however, the most important thing for me is having some kind of contrasting inlay at the ends of the far board. My sticks are really ugly--they are Baltic birch ply, and the "inlay" is black sharpie!  But adding that made a huge difference, and I can't imagine working without it. you might consider taking a sharpie and making 1/2" x 1" squares a couple inches from each end, just as an experiment. You obviously are able to do very precise work with your sticks, but I think you will notice a difference.

Thanks Steve! I certainly agree, these are fantastic for tables and large panels but a PITA for small stuff. I use the bottom edge, when I see light just barely between the two sticks on both ends I know I'm there. That being said, you make a good point and it would likely be an improvement.

I may dig up some well behaved stock and run a strip of ebony down it.

[Steve Voigt]

I may dig up some well behaved stock and run a strip of ebony down it.

Thanks for taking my suggestions with good humor. I hate to be so pedantic, but I think that a solid strip is not much improvement and not worth doing. IMO comparing two widely spaced inlaid squares is visually much more precise than a single line. I would not have expected this to be true, but I've found it so.

I think Ken showed some sticks recently that used half moon cutouts at the ends. Different design, same principle.

[Brian Holcombe]

Ahh, I see. That's even better as I have some 1/2" square, 1/8" thick ebony slices. Off cuts from a recent part of the project that I was just thinking...what would I do with these?

The universe works in mysteries ways, hah.

[Brian Holcombe]

I've re-sawn some bubinga to Roubo's dimensions for this project. I figure if I make them from wood I can't use something that will end up turning into something else

[Phil Mueller]

I'll throw in my 2 cents. I also put a contrast dowel dot in the lower center of each to easily place both in the center of the work piece. So Anal. Of course, Brian, you could certainly inlay some kind of compass with exotic woods if you wish

[Mike Holbrook]

I just discovered strips of purple heart I cut off planes and saved. You are tempting me! I have some Ash that would contract well...