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Thread: Another jointing thread, wood that is not dimensioned

  1. #1
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    Another jointing thread, wood that is not dimensioned

    I have been working 24, 26" boards for panel glue ups. The work has been going slower than I had hoped. I finally discovered that none of the 4/4 stock I am using is reliably square\flat on any of it's surfaces. Once I am done I will have a better idea about how to prepare wood for glue ups. The project has reminded me of the fact that I like working from split/rived logs. My question then becomes how would other posters suggest preparing stock without any reliable dimensions for furniture projects? Using an electric jointer would be considered cheating.

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    Create one flat surface, and mark the other surfaces from that. This surface doesn't need to be square to anything - it just needs to be square to itself (no twist).

    If your board is twisted, you may want to start with flattening a face and removing the twist. Use winding sticks to sight down the board and find the high spots. Plane those down, and then continue flattening the whole surface. You can then use this surface as a reference from which to derive the rest. When doing the edges, continually check with a square.

    If your board is significantly twisted, you may need to cut it into shorter, or narrower dimensions. Those will be easier to remove the twist from without removing too much thickness.

    For your last edge, use a marking gauge or panel gauge to mark the opposite edge parallel to the first.

    There are lots of great videos on this. I'd recommend just looking up on Youtube "How to square up (/true) stock by hand"

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    Mike, are you talking about glueing up panels with stock that has not been face jointed?

    I would joint the edges using winding sticks, then adjust them so that the entire panel is flat-ish then glue it up. Face joint the entire panel after the glue has cured.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  4. #4
    "My question then becomes how would other posters suggest preparing stock without any reliable dimensions for furniture projects"

    Not sure I understand the question. If you mean no reliable REFERENCE, then you can either use winding sticks or a known solid reference like a bench to test.


  5. #5
    I do like Brian: Flatten one edge using straightedge and winding sticks and do likewise for the matching board. Then with the second board still in the vise, lay the other board on top and check for rocking, gaps etc. Take your straightedge and hold it vertically against the two boards to see that they match up in the best way. It may be that they are convex at one end and concave at the other.

    If they match poorly so that a glue up would create a concave panel or something, then make an adjustment with the jointer so there will be a minimum of work to flatten the panel after gluing.

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    Using an electric plane can get rid of the grunt work,and I use one myself if I have to take a lot off of,say,a door. But,it will only get you so far as far as accuracy is concerned. Hand planes should then take over since their blades can be set much more finely. And,they give you more time to think.

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    Right Brian, Prashun, Luke I was talking about starting out with boards or even splits that have no reliable reference surface. Most posts about jointing suggest using a square to adjust two edges until they are square, 90 degrees to each other, which does not work if there isn't a level/flat surface to start with. I think the answer I was looking for was winding sticks. Winding sticks, however, are a more sophisticated way of "eye balling" where wood needs to be removed not a way to make a surface flat. Running a plane down a surface makes it flatter, but in reference to what.

    A video I have by Schwarz uses winding sticks and a cambered plane. The cambered plane takes more off of one side than the other lowering the high side, once it is found. Still it seems that we have to do a fair amount of "eye balling" to figure out where our work needs to be lower. Then we have to use shorter, narrower instead of full length full plane strokes to lower the high places enough to use full strokes. All those videos showing a board being leveled with a jointer plane taking full length perfect shavings can be a little deceptive. I have found a shorter plane with a cambered blade to be useful for some of this work instead of the normally used long plane with a straight blade. The long plane tends to continue on the existing plane vs adjusting to a different plane, if that makes sense?

    I have seen so many videos that I think may over simplify the process in an effort to make the process understandable. Those idyllic videos don't seem to me to show how to work all those warped,twisted,cupped, cross grained....boards that I always seem to end up with. One can end up continuing an existing error instead of correcting it trying to follow those procedures. I think this may be the issue for another poster who was posting that he could not seem to get his boards jointed.

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    Thanks for the replies Warren and George.
    In the past I would have just used an electric planer, bandsaw... or wood that had one or two reliable surfaces. I am making myself do these with hand planes in an effort to learn more about how to do the work with hand tools.

    The boards, which I thought were decently dimensioned, are so far off I have not been able to clamp them together in a vise to match plane them. As George suggests I have been sorely tempted to run them through the planer to get them closer. I am doing this the hard way on purpose for the learning experience.

    I tend to forget that a plane, especially a long one, is a relatively reliable "winding stick", straight edge.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-25-2016 at 5:52 PM.

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    One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that 4/4 stock is pretty flexible, and can easily bend to conform to the worksurface during planing. If you just plop your workpiece on the bench and have at it with a jointer then there's a good chance that you'll end up creating a mirror image of the opposing face (the one that gets bent flat by planing pressure).

    There are a few ways to avoid that problem: First, you can flatten the high spots of the back face (the one that will rest on the bench) using cross and diagonal strokes with a jack or scrub until it rests reasonably flat on the bench. Second, you can shim under the high spots. Third, you can keep vertical forces low during planing (easier said than done though).

  10. #10
    A few more notes. It is a lot of extra work to flatten the faces of both boards before gluing, then having to true up the face again after gluing. And usually more thickness is lost with all these extra facings. As you noticed the so called "match planing" needs a face on each board to be flat, so it is not really a help in this situation. Nicholson (1812) noted that two boards were shot together only if they were very thin. In any case the use of a square from a flat side is not nearly as accurate as winding sticks in making a flat joining surface.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Mike, are you talking about glueing up panels with stock that has not been face jointed?

    I would joint the edges using winding sticks, then adjust them so that the entire panel is flat-ish then glue it up. Face joint the entire panel after the glue has cured.
    I think this is the best method for the stated situation also, assuming the faces are relatively decent and flat. Ie : if there are very large dips, twist, bow, gouges, etc it could take an enormous amount of planing to get the resulting glue up flat. I think common sense needs to prevail, that is to say, you the woodworker needs to decide how flat is flat enough. If it is excessive then by all means face joint the pieces becuase that will be easier than an entire panel..
    Last edited by Pat Barry; 05-25-2016 at 7:07 PM.

  12. #12
    I appreciate that it is difficult to flatten a face.

    Flat in reference to itself. All points of the face should be coplanar. Using winding sticks is ultimately fast but at first you can try flipping the piece upside down and rocking it on the bench top. Plane the sections that do not rock.


    You require a reference at least at first. It is not an eyeballing thing.

  13. #13
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    Mike, I'm going through the same learning curve. In my case, I'm just trying to get project parts flat and square. I do have a piece of glass I used to use for sharpening that's about 24" x 6" x 1/2" I use as a reference.

    I have also adopted Brian's and others method of using the bench top to create a long shooting board. Challenge of course is making sure the iron is square to the bench top

    I just started practicing on scrap to edge joint two boards for a glue up. Quickly becomes obvious that two banana shaped boards won't go together too well. Slight hollow in the middle isn't bad, but a curved down end just isn't going to cut it.

    I guess I just posted to say you're not alone.

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    Mike, If you are working with riven stock you may need to start with a hatchet and maybe a slick to get it clean enough to plane. Even a scrub plane will take it one splinter at at time depending on the wood. So it's hatchet ( I like a single bevel for this work), slick if it helps, scrub plane and eyeballs, winding sticks and coarse cutting Jack, and jointer. You should now have a face to work from. Been a long time since I did any of this work and it is work. With short boards like your working you could go to the shave horse and a draw knife if you have it.
    Jim

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    Right Warren, I am trying not to loose too much stock before I get the boards glued up. I am making 8 panels, 3 boards each, for raised panel shutters. The existing shutters must have been made from 4/4 stock, they are 7/8-3/4" thick. Match planing was not helping with many of the boards, for the reasons Warren mentions.

    Actually I found and bought 4/4 stock at Lowe's. I had never seen 4/4 at a box store. This must have been a special order or something that got screwed up. There are 3/8" deep gouges in a few boards, there are major patterns still in the surfaces from whatever planed those surfaces.

    I have been using the method Prashun's suggests, checking the surfaces on my bench top, by rocking them, which gets me close. The concave side only rocks if there is twist too though. Once I find the convex side and get it closer to flat, I have been cross planing to find the raised areas on the other surface and then taking them down.

    The issue I am finding with the winding sticks is the same error all along a board or two boards edge(s) does not show up with winding sticks as the two follow the same error. I tried using the edge of my bench as a "shooting board" which helped, but I don't want to screw up square on my bench. I may rig up a long shooting board, like Derek and Brian suggested in another thread.
    Last edited by Mike Holbrook; 05-25-2016 at 9:48 PM.

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