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Thread: Chisels

  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    You should be aware that there is a tradeoff between toughness and wear resistance in tool steels. Japanese chisels circumvent that to a degree by using laminated blades (i.e. some of each), but in general "chisels you can whale on with a metal hammer" and "chisels with highly wear-resistant edges" are mutually exclusive groups. Even in the case of Japanese chisels a 12-oz domed-face hammer is pushing it IMO.

    If you want wear-resistant steels you'll realistically need to ditch the hammer.
    please elucidate...

    I guess my ancient, out of production, Hart hammer is slightly domed...but one thing I do know is F=1/2mv^2...e.g. you don't have to whale on the sucker, and that is why I started using a 12 oz. hammer years ago...light enough that I can carefully tap on woods to align them and not leave a dent...and of course, it will impart a decent amount of energy when swung with 'force' (and by that I mean a proper swing of the hammer...it's a body motion thing...taught to me years ago by a framer who laughed at my 32 oz. hammer and showed me how to drive 3" vinyl coated sinkers above my head with a 21 oz. hammer with 2 hits...start...SLAM with proper body motion).

    look...I'm aware of the transference of energy and such...and the ill effects on woods (especially cross grained strikes)...this can be seen in 2 distinct fashions that I try to avoid...1: the chisel will move in both directions because of the bevel...e.g. it can widen up your intended mortise by moving into the field of the material you want to leave...the trick here is to remove as much wood as possible up to the actual mortise line, then start work on the mortise line...in general I do this with a router...sometimes I'm forced, because of a superintendent whining about dust, to do it all by hand...either way the trick is to remove material close to the actual line, then focus on the line...this allows the bevel of the chisel to push the remaining wood away easily and not move the back into the field of the wood you want to preserve...2: crushing of cross grained cuts...this is seen by the wood intended to be left being a tad crushed and dimpled...unclean...cr@ppy work...

    point being, I usually use my hammer judiciously...yeah, sometimes I whale upon it...most times not...just part of the work and just exactly what type of work is being performed...

    I am assuming a plastic/rubber faced mallet is a likely candidate for alternate striking instrument?

    yeah, I'm sure I'm NOT that old to learn a new instrument...I use a rubber/plastic faced mallet now and again for certain types of work...thing is I am also keenly aware of the loss of energy being transferred to the item being struck...

    as far as hardness of steel...yeah, I am also aware of that concept (though as noted NOT experienced with quality chisels that have a higher rc rating)...and yeah, it's a trade off...that is why I am focusing on rc61-63 as opposed to ultimate Japanese rc65-67...

    big point to me, as I previously noted, is that a chisel stay sharp for a whole work day when put to repeated use...the Japanese products intrigue me...layered steel, and higher rc rating...

    in the end I am also realizing for my own 'preservation' on site I also need to think of similarity to total size of the chisel as compared to the Hell Depot Bucks I've been using for ages now...

    at the very least, I hope to be 'happy' with whatever I choose...$, while certainly 'important', are not a great issue per se. I'm not looking to spend over a grand on a set of ultimate Japanese chisels...rather $300 maximum for a limited array of chisels...1/2" is the smallest I use (3/4" is the smallest cross grained mortise I do) and 5/8" might be an option as opposed to 1/2"...3/4-7/8" for 1" cross grain cuts, and for standard strike plates on a jamb I have to admit sometimes 1 1/2" is a tad short...I'm leaning at going for 1 3/4" for an investment quality chisel...

    yeah, I have 'worries' about changing things...legitimate worries in the sense that when I make a mistake, it is usually a costly one...simply because of the fact I work on very high $ homes, and that implies expensive materials...on a very lucky day I make a FUBAR on a paint grade item...that can be patched, repainted, and fairly easily forgiven...fekk a stained item up, and it's most likely throw it away and replace it...my most recent FUBAR in that respect was a result of working in low light and mistaking a nail hole for the mark I made for location of bore for a dead bolt in a T-astragal...whoooops...throw that T-astragal away, remortise it for the throw bolt into the head jamb, and cry in shame...and yeah, I did the restoration work gratis...the best I can do to warranty my craftsmanship...in general, when given some serious cr@p about a mistake I simply answer "Mel Gibson" and the person said comment is directed to says "say what???", and I respond "according to Mel, they took the last perfect carpenter, beat the *edited* out of him, put a crown of thorns on him, then nailed him to a big cross...I'm not that guy...I try, but still make human mistakes"

  2. #32
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    Admittedly I'm making an assumption about how you use the hammer.

    A simplified way to look at this is that the act of swinging a hammer (or mallet) first accumulates a certain amount amount of kinetic energy in the head (and to a lesser extent in the wielder's arm/body), and then delivers that energy to the target. Even if you keep the energy constant, the metal hammer will tend to deliver that energy more quickly and completely, leading to higher peak forces at both the top of the handle and the cutting edge. All else being equal you would need a tougher edge to withstand those impacts without folding/chipping/etc.

    Obviously if you're using the hammer very judiciously then you could keep the impacts loads in the same range as with a mallet, but to achieve that you would actually have to be delivering *less* energy per stroke than you would with a mallet, which is inefficient (requires more strokes to do a given amount of work).

  3. #33
    Mike, I read this whole thread and in summary, I hear you saying several things:
    1) You're using these chisels for Quality work that you do to earn your living.
    2) You don't want to change hammers.
    3) Money isn't the driving issue here.
    4) Getting through a day without honing is your major goal.

    I would do just what you're thinking and buy 1-2 mid-grade Japanese chisels. Perhaps even high grade ones. They are hooped, have superb steel and are made to be used by guys at work. I'd be sure to keep them in a good tool roll. But assuming you don't plan to share your tools, I wouldn't personally hesitate to take them to a job site. Stan Covington lives and works in Japan, doing work that resembles yours. I'd either buy the ones he suggested, or drop him a PM asking more questions. But it sounds like Japanese is the way to go to me too.

    Fred
    Last edited by Frederick Skelly; 05-30-2016 at 8:30 AM.

  4. #34
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    Michael, I do similar type of stuff for a living too. Find my website by my name, but I'm not allowed to post any links here. The chisel that stays in my apron all the time, is an older, blue handled Marples or Record. That company has since been bought out by Irwin. You can still find plenty of the old ones on Ebay every day. I can do what you are talking about all day, and sometimes for several days before I need to hone it. PM me your address, and I'll hone one, and send it to you to try. I would loan you a Wood is Good mallet to try too, but I use that most days.

    The best carpenter I ever had work for me used a 12 oz. curved claw, wooden handled hammer for everything, including framing. He was known as the best finish carpenter around back then. He had been a gunner on a big gun in a battleship in WWII and couldn't hear out of one ear as a result. I learned a lot from him. He showed me how to set a cap iron. Jack (L.W. Jordan) was also much in demand for the ammo he loaded by competitive shooters. He quit climbing, and working on houses in the late '80s, and spent his last 12 or so years building all the cabinets he wanted to build in his shop in his back yard.

  5. #35
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    Carpenters in the west don't use Japanese chisels on a job site; their too high in maintenance. Get yourself a set of Irwin Marples or Stanley Fatmax chisels with the shock resistant handles. Personally I prefer to use the heavier 21 0z claw hammer. Wooden mallets are for shop work.
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 05-29-2016 at 9:08 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Carpenters in the west don't use Japanese chisels on a job site; their too high in maintenance. Get yourself a set of Irwin Marples or Stanley Fatmax chisels with the shock resistant handles. Wooden mallets are for shop work.
    Stewie, It seems the points from the original post are being missed.

    --- I use a 12 oz. hammer.

    I know my hammer VERY well, and since I'm an in the field trim/finish carpenter who uses chisel for hardware I have no desire to change out the tool I use to hit my chisels with...

    --- so my query is this: are wooden handled chisels OK with being struck by a 12 oz. hammer?

    --- about the only mid-range chisel I see with a metal cap is the Irwin Marples brand, and I'm not sure they are much better than a Buck Brother's...

    --- what I need is a quality piece of steel that will keep an edge for a few days, as opposed to the Bucks which tend to need honing every day, if not resharpening if I hit a hard piece of wood and get a few micro nicks in them.
    Even I may have missed it with my suggestion for Narex chisels. I do not know if they hold an edge any better than the Buck Bros chisels currently in use by Michael.

    Since many of those are inexpensive, one answer may be to have multiple chisels in the same size so they can be switched out and sharpening can be done less often.

    Otherwise if Michael wants wooden handled chisels with blade retention abilities there may be no other choice than Japanese chisels or installing hoops on something like PM-V11 chisels.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  7. #37
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    Japanese chisels are easy maintenance once they're setup. I've had many of them which have never seen anything other than a finish stone after setup. I dont have knock around chisels, so I use my best chisels in doug fir framing members when I need to, and the cabinetwork that I post up here.

    FWIW, good high carbon steel Japanese Chisels are anywhere from $100-$200/ea depending on the maker and size. If you are serious about a good couple of Japanese chisels you'd circumvent a lot of wasted effort by asking Stanley Covington (who replied on page one) about makers.

    Price does not always dictate quality, so keep that in mind. I've had in two instances where chisels at the lower end of the range above well outperform ones on the higher end of that range.
    Last edited by Brian Holcombe; 05-29-2016 at 9:21 PM.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  8. #38
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    Jim; my own experience with the Narex chisels suggests the steel is too soft for high impact work.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    Japanese chisels are easy maintenance once they're setup. I've had many of them which have never seen anything other than a finish stone after setup. I dont have knock around chisels, so I use my best chisels in doug fir framing members when I need to, and the cabinetwork that I post up here.

    FWIW, good high carbon steel Japanese Chisels are anywhere from $100-$200/ea depending on the maker and size. If you are serious about a good couple of Japanese chisels you'd circumvent a lot of wasted effort by asking Stanley Covington (who replied on page one) about makers.

    Price does not always dictate quality, so keep that in mind. I've had in two instances where chisels at the lower end of the range above well outperform ones on the higher end of that range.
    Brian; what needs to be bared in mind is that unlike the west, Japan traditionally don't use nails to assemble their house frames; when doing house renovation work here in the west you cant always guarantee your going to miss a nail that's hidden within a stud, batten, or noggin with your chisel. Its not unheard of to use the chisel as a pry bar on occasions. Its the nature of the work. Are Japanese Chisels designed and priced for that type of abuse; I have some doubts.

    Stewie;

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stewie Simpson View Post
    Brian; what needs to be bared in mind is that unlike the west, Japan traditionally don't use nails to assemble their house frames; when doing house renovation work here in the west you cant always guarantee your going to miss a nail that's hidden within a stud, batten, or noggin with your chisel. Its not unheard of to use the chisel as a pry bar on occasions. Its the nature of the work. Are Japanese Chisels designed and priced for that type of abuse; I have some doubts.

    Stewie;
    Lots of nails in Japanese housing nowadays. They are quite cheap since the days of Admiral Perry! 🤓

    If you are going to cut nails or put in sills and thresholds full of grit, plain HC chisels of any hardness will be damaged. Regardless of country of origin. There are chisels made of high speed tungsten alloys intended for working with plywood,

    The initial premise of this thread, though, was finish work.

    Stan

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    Stewie, It seems the points from the original post are being missed.
    I think that Stewie's actually making a good point here, and it's the same one I was trying to make earlier: Given the OPs stated requirements it's not at all clear that an upgrade is a good idea, whether to Japanese chisels or higher-end Western ones.

    Chisels like the Bucks he already has and the Stanleys are designed to take the sort of punishment he's likely to mete out. High-end chisels are designed for high-end work, and emphasize wear resistance over toughness.

    Stupid analogy: If you farm for a living you probably wouldn't want to trade your John Deere in for a Ferrari...

  12. #42
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    Hi again Michael

    I would like to mention another chisel, also Japanese, that I think could be the answer you are searching for: very sharp and the longest lasting edge I have come across. These are HSS steel chisels, designed especially for hammering into hard wood. I have one and holds an edge beyond the ridiculous

    http://www.toolsfromjapan.com/store/...th=312_313_363

    Buy just the sizes you need, and use your Worksharp ! I hone mine on diamond plates. This is the only downside - they are a bear to sharpen.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  13. #43
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    A bit of info; on the weekend I tried to flatten a hard silicon carbide honing stone using a coarse grit diamond stone; the diamond stone lasted about 20 min before it lost all its grit and is now cactus; I will be placing an order for some 280, 400, and 600 loose grit silicon carbide powder to use on a floating sheet of glass to complete the job. Every mistake provides an opportunity to learn from it.

    The following video shows the use of an extra coarse grain aluminium oxide powder to flatten a green silicon carbide combination stone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_vpMtppbkU


    Stewie;
    Last edited by Stewie Simpson; 05-30-2016 at 3:39 AM.

  14. #44
    Simple answer: No, do not use a metal hammer on wood handled chisels. Traditionally a wooden mallet is used but I use a Thorex (sp?)most of the time.

    You're getting an answer from a woodworker who tries not to be a carpenter so no offense, but there is quite a difference in the requirements for tools. But the principles are the same: a chisel needs to have a)a flat back, b)a sharp edge and c) good steel.

    That being said, I think the best entry level chisel for a woodworker is a set of Irwin Marples and they will also do well for what you're describing. And that being said, for what you're doing, even a Buck Bros. chisel will work well for you if properly sharpened.

    I recommend studying about sharpening and tuning up a chisel before you buy another set.

  15. #45
    well, again, thanks for all the good advice...

    I do know how to sharpen chisels...my last effort resulted in all 4 I sharpened taking the hair off of the back of my hand...and were properly lapped on the backside before hand, and very lightly afterwards with my extra fine water stone...

    the image is of a pocket door I did recently...you'll notice the edge pull, Rocky Mountain Hardware, is rounded all over and actually quite a PITA to make look good..the face pull is a Sun Valley Bronze FP-404...its edge is 1/4" thick...you'll notice it's only proud of the door by about 1/64"...this is what I use chisels for...most of the doors I deal with that are stained are a 1/16" laminate over structural plywood core, and this makes things tough on a chisel in various fashions...glue lines, varying densities of substrate that make working on one area easy, another inches away a bear...hidden knots...etc...I do all such work by first doing whatever boring/chiseling/routing required to get the piece to attach to the door...then apply yellow Frogtape around the area, then affix the hardware and locate as I desire...after I'm pleased with the location, I carefully use my utility knife with a sharp blade to scribe around the piece (this is hand finished stuff, not necessarily a perfect rectangle or even straight), remove the piece then peel back the tape that was covered by the hardware and am presented with an outline of my mortise...I then carefully strike with an appropriate chisel along said line once, and only once, to define the line...at this point too hard/deep of a strike will result in the back of the chisel moving over and resulting in shoddy work...it can also result in dimpling of the wood in the field...in the case of the face pull I had a router dedicated to the project (a total of 11 pocket doors = 22 face pulls) and carefully routed to depth as close to the tape as I felt safe at any given moment (yeah, one slip and it's game over buddy)...then using chisels (1.5") finalized the mortised and the results in general were tight enough to require using my 12 oz. mallet to tap in place...as a note I ended up going back to that door and shimming out the edge pull a tad to make it look better....!@#$%^&*&^%$# rock tumbled rounded over edges!

    point being, I use chisels for what they are intended for...I have pry bars, flat bars, 5 in 1 tools, etc., for other tasks...

    yes, I paid attention to the Japanese chisels mentioned earlier, and have found sources...but I'm not sure such hard steel is needed per se, and might be a PITA to deal with...then again, they might just be the ticket...

    as has been noted, yep, every now and again I hit a nail in a door jamb (usually caused by an installer ignorant of hardware and their locations), though statistically speaking that's usually with a router bit not a chisel...but, it happens...and it's for door jambs that a really sharp chisel is required...why?, because every strike against a jamb is also transferring energy to everything around it...caulk joints of casing to jamb...if it's a jamb embedded in plaster then cracking that line...etc...yeah, we block our doors at install, but usually at that point a person is quite understandably unaware that a deadbolt might be added 6" above the pre-bored location on the jamb...

    anyway, as I find myself more and more entrenched in the position of doing mostly hardware these days, a quality chisel is being desired...the Bucks have served for however long it's been since they replaced the Stanley's at the box stores...

    in the end my choices will definitely be driven by available sizes...a lot of decent chisels max out at 1 1/4", and that's just too small for my tastes...

    as far as the hammer...well, I'll just do what I'll do in that regards...the metal hoops are certainly going to be part of the equation...in general I rarely use my plastic/rubber mallet, but methinks the plastic side will transfer a decent amount of energy to a chisel (it certainly doesn't to a nail set)...and yeah, many times I find myself at the end of a mortise routine using the palm of my hand to drive the chisel for that extra hair of final depth to make the hardware sit as I want it to...

    thanks again for all of the valuable information
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