RIP - Ali

[Pat Barry]

I think there are some problems with your analysis.

There were many people who opposed the Vietnam War on a variety of grounds. Some felt that it was an immoral war, that it was an unwinnable war, that it was the sons of poor Americans who bore the brunt of the war, that Vietnam was engaged in a war of independance and we needed to butt out, and many other valid, moral reasons.

I never heard Ali say anything about why he opposed the war, only that he, personally, did not want to serve. The only statement I ever heard attributed to him was the one I quoted earlier, where he says that no Vietcong ever did anything to him personally.

Personally, I don't see that position as high moral opposition to the war. If he had not been called for the draft, I really doubt if Ali would have ever said anything about Vietnam, or even cared about it. It certainly does not make him a leader in any moral sense.

Mike

Mike, it seems you are passionate about this topic and I don't want to argue but this is a RIP (rest in peace) thread not a thread to rip the dead guy

[Von Bickley]

You're correct. Sincere conscientious objectors deserve our respect. But as you probably know, during the Vietnam period, a lot of people "discovered" they were conscientious objectors. And conscientious objection (for the draft) meant that you objected to all war (not just to the Vietnam War), and that it was a sincere and long-held belief.

Getting a deferment based on conscientious objector status was difficult and required showing that you had a background of that belief, not that you just came by it when you got your 1A status. If you were a Quaker, or a few other groups, that was easy.

Other groups that objected to war, such as the Amish, did civilian service as hospital orderlies instead of military service.

I never heard the exact reason for Ali's refusal to serve, but there was certainly nothing in his background that would indicate a long history of objection to war. The only comment I ever heard him make about his refusal was "Ain't no Vietcong ever called me {the N word}" which would have indicated an objection to serving in Vietnam, and not a general objection to war.

Mike

[I doubt if any of those 58,000+ people whose names are on that memorial in Washington, DC had been personally insulted by the Vietnamese before they served (and died).]

I agree with Mike 100%. A lot of young men did not care about being drafted, but they went and took the Military Oath.

[Allan Speers]

Ali was an outstanding boxer, but an absolutely disgusting human being.

This is indeed an "RIP" so enough of that, but it makes me a little crazy to here so many luminaries suddenly jumping on the andwagon and talking about him as if he were the second son of God or something.

[Charlie Velasquez]

I never heard Ali say anything about why he opposed the war, only that he, personally, did not want to serve. .....
Personally, I don't see that position as high moral opposition to the war. If he had not been called for the draft, I really doubt if Ali would have ever said anything about Vietnam, or even cared about it. It certainly does not make him a leader in any moral sense.

Mike

Before being classified 1A Cassius Clay converted to Islam and took the name Mohammed Ali.
In his legal abstract he explained that the Koran prohibited him from fighting in a war that was not 'sanctioned' (my term) by his religion. He publically said:
"War is against the teachings of the Holy Qur'an. I'm not trying to dodge the draft. We are not supposed to take part in no wars unless declared by Allah or The Messenger. We don't take part in Christian wars or wars of any unbelievers."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clay_v._United_States Wiki

Their were many conscientious objectors that received deferments based on religion. The draft board declared he did not meet the guidelines, but gave no reason why. Apparently the board and the appellant court decided in their hearts this was a demonstration and not a sincere religious conscientious objector. They rejected his appeal on several grounds but later admitted to the Supreme Court that all but one was invalid. They gave no reason for deciding this final reason valid and deciding Ali was not a genuine religious objectior. Without a bonafide reason the supreme court could not rule on whether rejection of his application for CO was valid, and had no choice but to overturn his conviction.

He was certainly true to his faith later in life, so it certainly seems reasonable that his application for conscientious objector was genuine. Had the draft boards and appellate courts given him the same treatment they gave many other religion based COs there would have probably been a couple of paragraphs on page 5. But by trying to make an example of him, he really had no other options and made national news and kept his name on the front page of not just the sports section, but most newspapers in the world.

He was willing to be imprisoned for his religion. So he was taking the highest moral ground that his religion dictated.

[Mike Null]

I believe I smell an odor of something else here. It's so convenient to forget Dick Cheney's 5 deferments during Viet Nam none of which were tied to a moral conviction of any kind. But he was hell bent on sending other young Americans into a senseless war.

[Prashun Patel]

Ding, ding ding!

Both sides will likely not be convinced here, and I'd hate to see anyone get ko'd over this when we're all in the ring for less controversial topics like sharpening, Sawstop, and Festool.

If you just HAVE to get another word in edgewise, lmk and I will unlock, but hopefully shots will remain above the belt.

If not, let's go back to our corners and box this one up.

Ok, I'm out of bad metaphors.