Elbows

[Reinis Kanders]

I frequently roll my forearms, triceps and biceps with lacrosse ball or hard foam roller of this type https://www.amazon.com/Original-Tige.../dp/B00ZPMAIO6
Seems to help, I also do a bunch of pull-ups most days spread across the day and that has strengthened those areas as well.

[david charlesworth]

This happened to a couple of my students, who stood facing the bench and planed with their arms.

There is much more control and power in the legs, so turn the hips as far as possible to the left, (feet in Yoga type position), jam the elbows into the ribs and use the legs.

I see a lot of arm planing on the net and do not consider this to be good practice.

Hope it heals soon,

David Charlesworth

[Patrick Chase]

I see a lot of arm planing on the net and do not consider this to be good practice.

Au contraire, it makes for terrific practice, if you happen to practice orthopedic surgery.

Seriously, I agree with this 100%. IMO there's too much emphasis in this thread on how to deal with the symptoms and aftermath, and not enough on potential root causes in our technique.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, I THINK that I am having good body posture. But on every stroke I push through and go from elbows neatly tucked in to almost stretched out (depends on the length of the piece of course). Anyone want to comment on that?

[david charlesworth]

This is a lot of work for elbows. Easily avoidable. With the added benefit of more power and more control.

David

[Kees Heiden]

Good. Something to give a try.

[Patrick Chase]

Well, I THINK that I am having good body posture. But on every stroke I push through and go from elbows neatly tucked in to almost stretched out (depends on the length of the piece of course). Anyone want to comment on that?

You don't want to do that. When your elbows are tucked in your skeleton isn't aligned with the applied forces (there are large force components that aren't in-line with your bones) and that means your muscles, tendons, and ligaments are carrying the load. When they're locked out straight you don't have range-of-motion to absorb impacts or other load variations, and that creates problems of its own (potential meniscus damage for starters). You want your joints to be "comfortably flexed" so that they have some range of motion to absorb impacts while still allowing your skeleton to carry most of the load.

We woodworkers actually have it easy. Tennis players and musicians don't have a choice - they *have* to contort their joints to a certain degree to perform well in their chosen endeavors. That isn't the case for planing.

If you think planing is bad you should try ski racing. To be competitive you have to be able to handle ~600 lbs turning forces on a single foot, while absorbing terrain and managing pressure over the ski (varying balance through the turn etc). Skeletal alignment is critical there. Once you get to a certain point it becomes easy to spot the people who will end up with their knee surgeons on speed-dial...

[Kees Heiden]

I'll see if I can make some videos this weekend. Apart from being fun, we could learn a bit from the comments.

[Luke Dupont]

You don't want to do that. When your elbows are tucked in your skeleton isn't aligned with the applied forces (there are large force components that aren't in-line with your bones) and that means your muscles, tendons, and ligaments are carrying the load. When they're locked out straight you don't have range-of-motion to absorb impacts or other load variations, and that creates problems of its own (potential meniscus damage for starters). You want your joints to be "comfortably flexed" so that they have some range of motion to absorb impacts while still allowing your skeleton to carry most of the load.

I swear that I've heard the same thing -- possibly word for word, from several my Martial Arts instructors.

We generally have a guideline as to a position that is too collapsed; the elbow should generally be more than a fist's distance (forward) from the body. Beyond that, you quickly lose support of the body behind your arm. Likewise with very extended positions -- though, in the case of "throwing" something that already has momentum behind it, such as a punch, or in this case, a plane, I think it is fine to follow through.

Tennis elbow can result, in Martial Arts, from over extending punches such that the elbow locks out and takes the load when the strike "stops" in the air, though. The same could be true of planing; if you are throwing your plane and you allow your arms to *fully* extend/lock out, the force of stopping the plane's momentum will damage your elbow and result in tennis elbow. That could very well be the OP's issue.

[Patrick Chase]

I swear that I've heard the same thing -- possibly word for word, from several my Martial Arts instructors.

We generally have a guideline as to a position that is too collapsed; the elbow should generally be more than a fist's distance (forward) from the body. Beyond that, you quickly lose support of the body behind your arm.

You see some version of that in almost every sport.

In my experience the ideal position depends on the dynamism of the activity, with highly dynamic tasks requiring more flex in the "default" position as you describe. IMO throwing/hitting is a lot more dynamic than planing, so I suspect that the ideal for planing is a bit straighter than that (at least, that's my experience).

Again going back to my own sport of choice, ski racers use more ankle/knee flex (and accept higher stress on connective tissues and/or lower load limits) on variable terrain than on smooth courses.

[david charlesworth]

By chance, I have just made a short You Tube clip to illustrate what I mean by planing with the legs.

https://youtu.be/Nka94EiVkmM

See what you think.

Best wishes,
David

[Patrick Chase]

By chance, I have just made a short You Tube clip to illustrate what I mean by planing with the legs.

https://youtu.be/Nka94EiVkmM

See what you think.

Best wishes,
David

Yep. I personally don't like having my elbows in that tight (it's not a very relaxed or athletic position, at least for me) and prefer to keep my back straighter (again, more relaxed position. Also, I have neck problems), but now we're getting down to fairly subjective quibbles.

The way I learned to plane from the legs/hips was by focussing on "stepping into" shorter planing strokes. That is, I consciously focussed on stepping onto my leading foot (left for me) as I started each stroke. When you do that you force your hips to move at the same time as the plane, and that establishes the habit of driving from your core rather than your arms. It also prevents you from folding at the waist, because if your hips are coming forward from taking a step then it's very difficult to make your upper body go further forward still by folding. Walking through a longer stroke is just the same thing with a bit more coordination.

As I mentioned above, you see similar issues and associated skill-building drills across a remarkably wide range of sports. Driving the hips forward to avoid "reaching" with the upper body is a foundational skiing technique in particular.

[Kees Heiden]

Thanks David, that's very clear.

One point though, you take a thin shaving from a narrow board, that doesn't take much force. I am not a strong guy, reasonably fit, but not strong. I choose to use speed to assist the hard work of planing rough sawn boards, and with just your legs it is kind of hard to get up enough speed.

Anyway, I promissed a video too this weekend. Here are two videos, flattening a quite severely bowed, rough sawn cherry board, first a vid with the jack plane, then a vid with the tryplane.

I am completely open for critique. I certainly know that I don't make it look easy!

In the end I did have a nice straight board, out of wind, hardly any tearout.

Edit: I forgot the links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lclnlBYuadI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEzF8Q7IZnw

[Patrick Chase]

Thanks David, that's very clear.

One point though, you take a thin shaving from a narrow board, that doesn't take much force. I am not a strong guy, reasonably fit, but not strong. I choose to use speed to assist the hard work of planing rough sawn boards, and with just your legs it is kind of hard to get up enough speed.

Your legs and core are MUCH stronger than your arms, unless you have very serious limb/spine/nerve damage or are on an extraordinarily ill-advised workout program. I can leg-press the entire stack (480 lbs) on a Nautilus machine for with one foot, but I've never been able to bench much over 200. My lower:upper strength ratio is probably higher than most (that's how I'm built), but even so it's a nontrivial multiple for all able-bodied humans. If you can drive the plane through a given cut with your arms then you can drive it through that cut with your legs, period. It's just a matter of establishing the right habits.

That is why I commented on David's elbow position, though: Your arms can't transmit anywhere near as much load in that position as they can with more extension (and better skeletal alignment).

[Kees Heiden]

But you get much more speed through your arms then moving your whole body.

But I am open for critique, and whiling to change my habbits.