Elbows

[Patrick Chase]

That's very helpfull Warren. And Brian too. I am for sure way too agressive. No wonder my body hurts. In the end I do get nice flat and straight boards, but it would be great if it was efficient too.

Anyone want to comment on my third video from post #48? Am I on the right track? Those were full length shavings. I like the idea of working short bits, especially with the jack plane.

The basic stance looks better, but Warren's right - the cut is too aggressive and you're stopping/starting too much. Building upon my string of marginal sports analogies it looks a little like a weightlifter who's trying to put up more than they can cleanly lift, and "jerking" to make it work. Not coincidentally people who do that also get joint issues.

I also think Brian is probably onto something when he asks about camber - IIRC from other posts you don't camber your jack/scrub planes much if at all, and that means you're pushing a full-width shaving. That's a super difficult way to rough even with a narrow plane like a scrub. FWIW I mostly rough with 2" wide (#5, #5-1/4W) blades cambered at 6" to 12" radii. I almost never take a full-width shaving, and I back off if I end up stopping in the middle of a shaving. The nice thing about camber is that backing off the depth also reduces the width, which gives the adjustment a lot of "dynamic range" (large range of achievable shaving cross-sections).

It's hard to tell from videos but I suspect that I take significantly smaller shavings than you do. Size isn't everything :-).

[Brian Holcombe]

It's interesting, Prashun and I were able to test that out this past week, not intentionally so but two basically identical try planes one with camber that was enough to feather the edges of a full width shaving that are probably .004"-.005" thick in the center vs just slightly cambered and relieved at the far edges, the difference was dramatic.

Both set for a similar cut and very similar cap iron settings.

[Clay Parrish]

I developed (or exacerbated) cubital tunnel syndrome trying to resaw with a crappy handsaw.

[Warren Mickley]

That's very helpfull Warren. And Brian too. I am for sure way too agressive. No wonder my body hurts. In the end I do get nice flat and straight boards, but it would be great if it was efficient too.

Anyone want to comment on my third video from post #48? Am I on the right track? Those were full length shavings. I like the idea of working short bits, especially with the jack plane.

I watched the third video again. You are somewhat easier on the arms, but still way more iron than you can handle comfortably, more than necessary. With the trying plane we usually concentrate on the high spots, (ends, middle, corners or whatever), and take relatively few full length shavings.

Here is a passage from Nicholson similar to what I do. I don't think I learned this from Nicholson, but am not certain. He doesn't say to lift the plane at the end of each stroke, but if you don't the shaving remains attached to the board.
Nicholson Jack Plane.jpeg

[david charlesworth]

Kees,

I am afraid I would say not.

The "bunny hops" with stopping and starting do not look comfortable at all.

Why not try taking a slightly lighter cut, keeping your left elbow still, jammed against your side and walking steadily from one end to the other?

David

[Jim Koepke]

Before I could walk and plane wood at the same time I had to quit chewing gum.

jtk

[Graham Haydon]

The Nicholson write up and Warren's tip seem right on the money for rough stock prep, David's seem good for edge jointing.

[Kees Heiden]

Who would have thought I have been hacking my way through life? Luckilly I never claimed anything else I am glad to be the guinea pig this time.

So, another message from this highly educative thread, you can still make things even when you are not some demi-god of handtool woodworking.

I'll look into the shaving thickness later.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Kees

I attempted to address this area in my "review" of the Veritas Custom Planes, which I posted here 18 months ago. (I saw the flexibility of the planes as an opportunity to discuss the ergonomics - as I view them - of planing, per se). The article of relevance is this one (although there are three altogether): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...omPlanes3.html

One of the points I made, based on observing videos of experienced woodworkers planing, was that the hand grasped and pushed the handle on the horizontal, and not downward, as often thought. Here is our own David Charlesworth ...





... and Garrett Hack ...



The experiences that influence the way I examine the ergonomics of planing - where the power comes from - are karate, tennis, squash and windsurfing. All have in common a drive from the hips. When David, above, talks of walking forward, what I do is bend the knees and maintain the same height as I move forward. I've tried to represent that here (extract from the article) ...

Inexperienced woodworkers appear to push down on the handle and lunge forward from the waist or shoulders. This leads to poor balance, poor control and limited power.


Experienced woodworkers, such as Jim Kingshott, describe that there is an optimal position for one’s feet for the push stroke (see his video, “Bench Planes”). Similarly, Jeff Miller (in “The Foundations of Better Woodworking”) demonstrates dropping the planing height as he pushes forward.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<…………………………………………………………..<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<








Obviously, by squatting low, the effective height of the bench is being raised. What I discovered I was doing was simply compensating for the lowered bench, dropping down lower and pushing the plane forward … as if I was working at a higher bench and standing more upright. This meant that the “advantage” of a forward leaning Bailey handle was lost.


Here is an illustration. Below is my bench. Notice that the top aligns with the hem of my t-shirt.





Now in the sequence below note that the hem has dropped below the skirt of the bench (about 5”), and it does not move in height as I shift my weight forward. The hips are the source of the forward drive and transfer force into the lowered forearms.


<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ……………………………………………………<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<







Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Stock preparation is an art. One of the things one has to balance is the trade off between a heavy enough cut to make efficient use of time, and light enough that one does not tire or injure. A stone mason once offered me a summer job some decades ago. I said "I'm just a little guy." He said "You know how to pace yourself. I get these weight lifters who have a ball for an hour, throwing stones around, then they can't work any more."

Kees may be working himself too hard, but he is successfully preparing stock from rough lumber. None of the guys pictured in Derek's post are doing any serious stock removal. And looking at the pictures, I would question whether they have more experience than Kees in this regard.

[Kees Heiden]

Well, for the discussion I measured some stuff, so we know what we are talking about.

Yesterday the jackplane produced shavings around 0.4 mm thick, that's about 16 thou. Of course the edge is cambered, but not as drastically as you see advertised sometimes. I guess the camber is 12".

foto 1 (3).jpg

The tryplane has a subtle bit of camber plus the corners are relieved a bit. I took shavings 0.15 mm thick, that's 6 thou.

foto 2 (3).jpg

Today I reduced the depth of cut on both planes, jackplane is 0.3 mm tryplane 0.1 mm. That makes quite a difference indeed! I am still not perfect, but at least it doesn't feel so jerky anymore. First you think that nothing happens with thinner shavings, you just have to go back and forth a few times extra to get the same amount of work done and suddenly you start to pull full length shavings.

Here is a short video from some tryplane work. There is a huge knot in this board, so that makes me stumble somewhat from time to time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS7GQQodmjs

Far from perfect yet, but I feel that I'm getting there. Now to heal the elbows first (especially right side). This is the work accomplished so far in this tutorial thread. As you can see, not really the best lumber ever. I hope the thread has been helpfull to other people struggling with the right body mechanics too.

foto (1).jpg

[Patrick Chase]

Hi Kees

I attempted to address this area in my "review" of the Veritas Custom Planes, which I posted here 18 months ago. (I saw the flexibility of the planes as an opportunity to discuss the ergonomics - as I view them - of planing, per se). The article of relevance is this one (although there are three altogether): http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolRev...omPlanes3.html

In addition to showing driving from the core, I think the pictures of Derek show pretty good elbow position and arm extension - extended enough to let the skeleton carry much of the load, flexed enough to provide absorption.

[Derek Cohen]

Kees may be working himself too hard, but he is successfully preparing stock from rough lumber. None of the guys pictured in Derek's post are doing any serious stock removal. And looking at the pictures, I would question whether they have more experience than Kees in this regard.

I disagree, Warren. Firstly, while the planing involves jointing, there is no difference in the mechanics involved. Planing technique is the same regardless of type of plane or type of planing: use the hips and legs. Secondly, both David Charlesworth and Garrett Hack are far from intermediate woodworkers. Look at the video that David posted. I've watched videos of both, and they are the model of good technique.

Did you watch the last video of Kees? Kees, this video reveals all. That is, why you are experiencing elbow problems. Here is a screen shot from your video ....



What is evident is that you are pushing with your shoulder and elbow. Your hips and legs hardly move. Instead you sway from the upper body, and lever with your shoulder and elbow. That places all the stress on your elbow. Further, your body faces the board - the bench may be too low - and you do not bend your knees. This makes it difficult to face forward, where you would have being able to drive the plane with an elbow against your side. Instead you appear well off balance.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Graham Haydon]

I still can't help thinking there are two topics in one thread. It's very easy to stroll along the bench taking fine refining cuts on narrow stock and give it as an example. With work of that nature accuracy would suffer with poor technique but you'd be hard pressed to hurt yourself. Kees is doing something which is my opinion very different to anything shown in the photos.

Kees, that video is looking very good to me! Smooth movements, seems close to what I'd imagine Nicholson was describing. I'd like to think I look that controlled when I'm converting stock.

[Kees Heiden]

Derek, this is the classic pose of holding a wooden plane. With the left hand across the plane body, thumb on near side, fingers on the other. This automatically puts your body facing the bench, otherwise your left hand couldn't put any weight on the plane.