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Thread: A Promise Kept....

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Koepke View Post
    I can not tell much from the images of the plow plane posted at the beginning of this thread. It looks right behind the blade to me. The Veritas Small Plow Plane certainly is.

    jtk
    Jim the pictures are very clear! The handle is to the right. The pushing force to the two rods both drags and pushes the blade.
    The very long fence with its wood insert will wear at the back more than the front as the leading edge of the fence will be pushed away.
    Easy to test, just apply a thin coat of paint to the inside of the fence and use it to see where it wears. Ideally it would wear more at the front of the fence, as the fence is supposed to guide the blade. My money is on it wearing more at the back; that would be disappointing.

  2. #32
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    William, perhaps the pictures distort the alignment. As one who has used the plane, I can assure you that the handle and blade is coplanar.

    I am surmising here since I have not looked at the pictures again, but perhaps what you see is the second skate. As with the Stanley #45 and other similar ploughs, this could be mistaken for an offset bed.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  3. #33
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    Beautiful work as always Rob-thanks for the preview!
    Happy and Safe Turning, Don


    Woodturners make the world go ROUND!

  4. #34
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    Rob. If you have pictures of any other of your upcoming projects

    If you're still down with Derick watching the toilets spin in the other direction then ignore this and enjoy your trip

  5. #35
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    One must also remember the pictures are of prototypes. Who knows what changes may lurk in the path to production?

    The shadow knows...

    jtk

    -as an old time radio fan I just couldn't resist.
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    Jim the pictures are very clear! The handle is to the right. The pushing force to the two rods both drags and pushes the blade.
    The very long fence with its wood insert will wear at the back more than the front as the leading edge of the fence will be pushed away.
    Easy to test, just apply a thin coat of paint to the inside of the fence and use it to see where it wears. Ideally it would wear more at the front of the fence, as the fence is supposed to guide the blade. My money is on it wearing more at the back; that would be disappointing.
    Boy do we see the pictures differently. The handle appears aligned with the blade to me. The parallax due to the angle and the fact that the handle support is above the the non-integral skates seems to cause the confusion. Derek has tested a prototype. If he says they are aligned, it is good enough for me.
    Shawn

    "no trees were harmed in the creation of this message, however some electrons were temporarily inconvenienced."

    "I resent having to use my brain to do your thinking"

  7. #37
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    I think I can see what William's concern is; in the pictures it looks like the skate on the "main" frame - the frame the handle attaches to- is on the furthest left edge of the frame when looking down at the plane while using it. Granted, the frame is only about 2cm wide (apparently), so the right edge of the blade is almost centerline on the frame - but then the rest of the blade goes off to the left, and on wider blades that causes leverage and would make the plane turn left if you tried to use it one-handed.

    William, please correct me if I misunderstand you, but to me it looks like you're saying there isn't a handle for the left hand (on a right-handed plow plane) to guide and push the fence against the work? If that's your concern, the bowed frames of the fence, between the rods, is that second handle. I'm probably misunderstanding you, as surely you've used a Stanley combination plane (#45, 50, 55) that rely on the same left hand action.

    FWIW, I have a Veritas small plow and a Stanley 55 and both have the skates of the main frame centered in the casting, not oriented to the side as it appears in these pictures of the large plow prototype. If you look closely at the last two pictures Rob provided, the skate is off-center and milled straight off the left side of the casting. I don't think it would be much of a problem in use, with the off-hand lightly pushing in against the fence.

    Karl

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    As one who has used the plane...
    I think that counts as a "gloat" :-)

  9. #39
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    on wider blades that causes leverage and would make the plane turn left if you tried to use it one-handed.
    Anyone who has used a plane with a fence has likely learned using it one handed doesn't work too well.

    There are a few ways to deal with the rods sticking out.

    One is to set the rods so the excess comes out on the opposite side of the plane body as the fence.

    Another is to make your own side handle:

    #45 Side Handle.jpg

    This is a piece of scrap drilled to match the size of the rods and the distance between the rods.

    The knob on the skate of the Stanley #45 can cause a problem of getting the fence to align properly to the work. The #55 does a much better job of this.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  10. #40
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    I understand and agree, Jim - I wasn't sure if William was suggesting a knob as on the #45, like you show, or not. I believe he's pretty experienced, so I'm sure I misunderstood his concern somewhere along the line.

    I was curious if the knob on the fence helped at all, since grasping/ pushing the fence frame does seem to work just fine; your comment seems to imply that it doesn't.

    Even though the space between rods leaves a pretty small space for holding the fence on the Veritas small plow, it's still more comfortable than what I end up doing with my left hand while planing with the #78 rabbet/ filetster - that's downright painful sometimes.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karl Andersson View Post
    I understand and agree, Jim - I wasn't sure if William was suggesting a knob as on the #45, like you show, or not. I believe he's pretty experienced, so I'm sure I misunderstood his concern somewhere along the line.

    I was curious if the knob on the fence helped at all, since grasping/ pushing the fence frame does seem to work just fine; your comment seems to imply that it doesn't.

    Even though the space between rods leaves a pretty small space for holding the fence on the Veritas small plow, it's still more comfortable than what I end up doing with my left hand while planing with the #78 rabbet/ filetster - that's downright painful sometimes.
    For me and likely others, the left hand is used keeping the fence against the guide surface. Using the knob only presses against the front of the fence. Forward effort on the knob will tend to kick out the trailing edge of fence and might cause a skewing of the plane.

    On the Veritas Small Plow Plane the rods terminate inside the fence casting. The outside of the fence is comfortable and nests into the left hand. It feels like it is supposed to be there.

    For the #78 rabbet/filester you could make a knob to slip over the rod to make it more comfortable. It is amazing how much a little comfort can change one's thoughts on a tool.

    jtk
    Last edited by Jim Koepke; 02-04-2017 at 2:54 AM. Reason: wording,
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

  12. #42
    Rob, I certainly Look forward to helping you with your "capital outlay" when this is released.You already have my address!

  13. #43
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    My concern is the force from the handle appears to be to the right of the blade, especially when viewed from underneath. The blade is between the skates. This would tend to skew the blade left. Clearly it's far more comfortable using both hands so the left hand deserves a handle rather than just holding the fence, especially if you intend to do lots of work with it.
    I will wait until it hits the stores for a real look. It may be model 2 or 3 before I'm tempted. Clearly this will not be inexpensive and in my age group it has to be able to keep me happy forever! Why can there not be a big 'horseshoe' from the back with two identical handles?

  14. #44
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    William, technically and theoretically you are correct, but in practice this is not the case. The Large Plow is essentially a scaled up version of the Small Plow, and I rather doubt anyone has stated that it pulls to one side. Rather the opposite, in fact. The Large Plow is exceptionally stable and controlled.

    I shall post one picture, just to illustrate the relative sizes of the two planes. Those who have used a Small Plow will be able to anticipate and visualise how the Large Plow is likely to feel in use.

    Both planes are in grooving mode (the Large Plow has the second skate removed) ...



    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Fretwell View Post
    My concern is the force from the handle appears to be to the right of the blade, especially when viewed from underneath. The blade is between the skates. This would tend to skew the blade left. Clearly it's far more comfortable using both hands so the left hand deserves a handle rather than just holding the fence, especially if you intend to do lots of work with it.
    I will wait until it hits the stores for a real look. It may be model 2 or 3 before I'm tempted. Clearly this will not be inexpensive and in my age group it has to be able to keep me happy forever! Why can there not be a big 'horseshoe' from the back with two identical handles?
    If you haven't noticed Veritas products do not change much down the road. There is a lot of effort put in toward getting it right the first time.

    The 'horseshoe' would only work if the blades were all the same size. Even with a hinge in the 'horseshoe' it would still be a tougher job to steer the plane from behind than to have one hand on the fence holding it to the side of the work.

    After rereading this again:

    Hi Jim,
    I just googled a bunch of old plough planes from the previous century. I looked at the pictures and guess what?

    Every single one has the handle directly behind the blade. Imagine that! Planes with the handle directly behind the blade.
    It comes to mind that you may have never used a plane like the Stanley #45, #50 or #55. The handles are centered on the main body. Since the width of blades varies on the #45 & #55 from 1/8" to 1-1/4" it would be impossible or at least impractical to have a handle that was centered on all of the blades.

    To my knowledge there isn't a plow plane made to be used one handed while holding a cold beer in the other.

    Before making more comments about the handle being misaligned, how about we wait for the first ones to be shipped?

    I shall post one picture, just to illustrate the relative sizes of the two planes.
    Oh oh Derek, you have given away the secret about the two screws holding the adjustable fence. Well at least that answers a comment of mine made earlier.

    jtk
    "A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty."
    - Sir Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

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