LV O-1 Fitment in LN Planes

[ken hatch]

A couple of years ago Lie-Nielsen stopped production of O-1 tools. I can understand from a bottom line standpoint but....There is that damn but again....Some of us really do not like to use A-2 cutters. I like the LN planes, they are very well made if a little heavy, I can live with heavy. Living with A-2 cutters, not so much.


So of course Hock and Lee Valley come to mind, they both make very good O-1 and LV makes PM-11 irons as well, there is just one tiny problem. Both Hock and LV plane irons are just a silly mm thinner than LN's irons. That difference keeps either from mating with the LN frog. The LN depth adjuster has a steep slope and to mate with the cap iron requires a cutter of LN's thickness, other wise it will not let the cutter/chip breaker mate with the frog.


I've gone back and forth, sell all my LN planes but I like 'em except for the irons. Live with A-2 cutters, OK I've tried....It's like a bad marriage, you can make it work but is it worth the effort. What to do, what to do. BTW, I've had a Clifton iron on back order for months now (Its specs show it is the same thickness as the LN) but so for no joy.


I finally did a little red neck engineering and enlarged the depth adjustment slot on a Hock chip breaker and installed a LV O-1 iron with the modded Hock chip breaker in the LN #4. It works, the iron/chip breaker mate with the frog and there is little "slop" in the depth adjuster.


I'll live with the mod for a few weeks and if there are no problems the rest of the LN's will get the same adjustment.

ken

[Mike Brady]

That is interesting and I'm glad that you mentioned the idea as I was thinking of trying the LV irons in an LN #4. Chris Schwarz says he uses a PM-V11 iron in his LN #3. How is he doing it? Here is a quote from a recent blog post by Chris:" My smoothing plane is a Lie-Nielsen No. 3 in bronze with a 45° frog, improved chipbreaker and a (gasp) Veritas PM-V11 iron. I am a huge fan of this steel. It takes a wicked sharp edge that lasts a long time".

[Stewie Simpson]

Ken; I did find the following link of some interest in regards the difference in recommended honing angles.

01 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 33° for low-angle planes; grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

owledge.axminster.co.uk/workshop/o1-a2-or-pm-v11-which-steel-is-for-you/

[Patrick Chase]

Ken; I did find the following link of some interest in regards the difference in recommended honing angles.

01 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 33° for low-angle planes; grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

owledge.axminster.co.uk/workshop/o1-a2-or-pm-v11-which-steel-is-for-you/

The problem with honing at 33 deg for a low angle plane is that it leaves you with a 12 + 33 = 45 deg cutting angle, which defeats [one of] the point[s] of using such a plane to begin with.

PM-V11 does much better than A2 at low edge angles, enough so that I routinely use PM-V11 irons honed at 25 deg for end grain work with BU planes. I believe that Derek does or has done the same. While this may seem like heresy I think that as shipped by LV it's at least as good as typically hardened (~Rc59) O1 at 25 deg.

It would be interesting to try PM-V11 at its maximum manufacturer-recommended hardness of Rc64 (making what I believe to be a fairly safe assumption about ID), which is approaching Japanese blade territory. I assume LV doesn't use that precisely because they want it to work well at lower honing angles.

[Derek Cohen]

A couple of years ago Lie-Nielsen stopped production of O-1 tools. I can understand from a bottom line standpoint but....There is that damn but again....Some of us really do not like to use A-2 cutters. I like the LN planes, they are very well made if a little heavy, I can live with heavy. Living with A-2 cutters, not so much.


So of course Hock and Lee Valley come to mind, they both make very good O-1 and LV makes PM-11 irons as well, there is just one tiny problem. Both Hock and LV plane irons are just a silly mm thinner than LN's irons. That difference keeps either from mating with the LN frog. The LN depth adjuster has a steep slope and to mate with the cap iron requires a cutter of LN's thickness, other wise it will not let the cutter/chip breaker mate with the frog.


I've gone back and forth, sell all my LN planes but I like 'em except for the irons. Live with A-2 cutters, OK I've tried....It's like a bad marriage, you can make it work but is it worth the effort. What to do, what to do. BTW, I've had a Clifton iron on back order for months now (Its specs show it is the same thickness as the LN) but so for no joy.


I finally did a little red neck engineering and enlarged the depth adjustment slot on a Hock chip breaker and installed a LV O-1 iron with the modded Hock chip breaker in the LN #4. It works, the iron/chip breaker mate with the frog and there is little "slop" in the depth adjuster.


I'll live with the mod for a few weeks and if there are no problems the rest of the LN's will get the same adjustment.

ken

Hi Ken

I have a PM-V11 that works in a LN #3 without modification, although it is thinner than the 1/8" thick LN. The plane uses a LN chipbreaker (the new style, not the old Bailey style). Other make chipbreakers do not match as the LN slot is 1/4" further back.

I have also used a Clifton blade. It is exactly the same thickness as the LN. The downside of this blade is that it does not hold an edge as long as A2 in the abrasive woods I use. I would get twice (at least) the longevity from an A2 blade. Also note that A2 gets as sharp as O1 when you use appropriate media (in my case, hollow grinding, then Shapton 1000 > Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine > green compound on hardwood). All blades are beveled at 30 degrees.

Lee Valley also sell a blade that is the same thickness as the LN. Unfortunately, not for a #3. However you have a #4, and they do make one! It is not the Stanley Replacement series but the blades made for the Veritas bench planes they continue to produce (I assume that they will be replaced by the Custom planes at some stage).

Regards from Perth

Derek

[david charlesworth]

Ken,

If I understand correctly, the problem could easily be solved by a replacement yoke, which could be filed a little to fit the c/b slot.

I am sure L-N would supply such a thing.

David Charlesworth

[Stewie Simpson]

The problem with honing at 33 deg for a low angle plane is that it leaves you with a 12 + 33 = 45 deg cutting angle, which defeats [one of] the point[s] of using such a plane to begin with.

PM-V11 does much better than A2 at low edge angles, enough so that I routinely use PM-V11 irons honed at 25 deg for end grain work with BU planes. I believe that Derek does or has done the same. While this may seem like heresy I think that as shipped by LV it's at least as good as typically hardened (~Rc59) O1 at 25 deg.

It would be interesting to try PM-V11 at its maximum manufacturer-recommended hardness of Rc64 (making what I believe to be a fairly safe assumption about ID), which is approaching Japanese blade territory. I assume LV doesn't use that precisely because they want it to work well at lower honing angles.

Patrick; I have reread the article and made the following changes to give a clearer representation of the author's intention. As an example; under PM-V11 steel ; the author has a preference to use a honing angle of 30* on the bd planes; but a higher honing angle of 33* for the bu planes. http://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/wor...el-is-for-you/

01 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 30* ( for low-angle planes hone at 33* )
grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

Your reference of 12 + 33 = 45 deg cutting angle is correct; but you also need to factor in that the Veritas Low Angle Smoothing Planes are not restricted to end grain work; the point reinforced by the option of purchasing the iron with a 25* ; 38* ; or 50* primary bevel. http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/pag...=1,41182,48944

regards Stewie;

[Patrick Chase]

It is not the Stanley Replacement series but the blades made for the Veritas bench planes they continue to produce (I assume that they will be replaced by the Custom planes at some stage).

I hope not.

The old-style planes (4, 4-1/2, 5-1/4W, 6) are $60 cheaper than their custom counterparts in the cases of the 4 and 4-1/2, but every bit as good (and IMO better in one or two respects) if you don't actually need customization. The mouth adjustment via a moving frog that goes all the way through the sole is especially clever, and avoids both the flatness issues of movables toes and the chatter and "coupled adjustments" that have historically come with moving frogs.

Also, I'm not ready to let go of "East German Swimmer" humor. Rob's comment was and is a gift that keeps on giving.

[ken hatch]

Ken; I did find the following link of some interest in regards the difference in recommended honing angles.

01 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 33° for low-angle planes; grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

owledge.axminster.co.uk/workshop/o1-a2-or-pm-v11-which-steel-is-for-you/

Stewie,

Thanks for the link.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken

I have a PM-V11 that works in a LN #3 without modification, although it is thinner than the 1/8" thick LN. The plane uses a LN chipbreaker (the new style, not the old Bailey style). Other make chipbreakers do not match as the LN slot is 1/4" further back.

I have also used a Clifton blade. It is exactly the same thickness as the LN. The downside of this blade is that it does not hold an edge as long as A2 in the abrasive woods I use. I would get twice (at least) the longevity from an A2 blade. Also note that A2 gets as sharp as O1 when you use appropriate media (in my case, hollow grinding, then Shapton 1000 > Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine > green compound on hardwood). All blades are beveled at 30 degrees.

Lee Valley also sell a blade that is the same thickness as the LN. Unfortunately, not for a #3. However you have a #4, and they do make one! It is not the Stanley Replacement series but the blades made for the Veritas bench planes they continue to produce (I assume that they will be replaced by the Custom planes at some stage).

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek,

I'll order one of LV's replacement irons for the #4.

ken

[Tony Zaffuto]

I woild also consider either Clifton or Ray Isle's irons.

I do have and like the LV PM V11.

[ken hatch]

Ken,

If I understand correctly, the problem could easily be solved by a replacement yoke, which could be filed a little to fit the c/b slot.

I am sure L-N would supply such a thing.

David Charlesworth

David,

I've filed the yoke on one frog. I was a little ham handed (OK a bunch ham handed) and it ended up pretty "sloppy" much like an old Stanley plane. I may see if I can get a couple of yokes to play with.

ken

[ken hatch]

Hi Ken

...Clifton blade. It is exactly the same thickness as the LN. The downside of this blade is that it does not hold an edge as long as A2 in the abrasive woods I use. I would get twice (at least) the longevity from an A2 blade. Also note that A2 gets as sharp as O1 when you use appropriate media (in my case, hollow grinding, then Shapton 1000 > Spyderco Medium and Ultra Fine > green compound on hardwood). ...
Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

That is the crux of O1 vs. A2 or even PMv11, what wood do you use and how do you sharpen. I mostly work with USA domestic hardwoods and I much prefer natural stones for sharpening. Why natural stones? I can come up with a dozen reasons but the bottom line is probably two things they are how I learned to sharpen so they "feel right" and there is some "romance" to natural stones. Dumb I know but it is what it is. BTW I've started down the JNat slippery slope and I'm not sure where it will end. Say your Omni, Omni, VOR's for me I may need 'em.

ken

[Simon MacGowen]

http://knowledge.axminster.co.uk/wor...el-is-for-you/

01 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 30°
A2 steel – grind at 25° and hone at 33-35°
PM-V11 – grind at 25° and hone at 30* ( for low-angle planes hone at 33* )
grind at 25° and hone at 30° for ordinary Bailey planes.

regards Stewie;

The author uses a general statement "due to the metallurgical make up, it is not recommended to hone it at 30° ..." to support his recommendation. He is a fine craftsman, but in all my years of using A2 steel sharpened/honed at various angles, i have not found the 30* honing or 25* + micro bevel an issue at all -- I keep a 50* blade for difficult grains.

To me, he is splitting hair on that (unless Lie Nielsen's A2 steel he referenced is significantly different from Veritas A2 steel which I use). None of my peers (a few full-time cabinet makers using hand tools for fine fitting work) sharpen their A2 blades at odd angles like 33* or what not. Frankly, all we do is ball park 30* freehand and who cares about 33* or 34*.

Simon

[george wilson]

Ken, I wonder how many here are old enough to recall that the "Silly Millimeter" was the advertising slogan of a cigarette manufacturer back in the 50's. They advertised that they made their cigarettes a "Silly millimeter" longer than others did. I certainly heard that slogan many, many times!