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Thread: LV O-1 Fitment in LN Planes

  1. #16
    "Romance to Natural Stones"

    Isn't this a bad 80's movie?


  2. #17
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    Simon; appreciate your feedback on A2 steel.

    regards Stewie;

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simon MacGowen View Post
    The author uses a general statement "due to the metallurgical make up, it is not recommended to hone it at 30° ..." to support his recommendation. He is a fine craftsman, but in all my years of using A2 steel sharpened/honed at various angles, i have not found the 30* honing or 25* + micro bevel an issue at all -- I keep a 50* blade for difficult grains.

    To me, he is splitting hair on that (unless Lie Nielsen's A2 steel he referenced is significantly different from Veritas A2 steel which I use). None of my peers (a few full-time cabinet makers using hand tools for fine fitting work) sharpen their A2 blades at odd angles like 33* or what not. Frankly, all we do is ball park 30* freehand and who cares about 33* or 34*.

    Simon
    L-N's A2 is pretty good stuff. It's cryo-treated and long-wearing even as A2 goes, though not quite up to the level of PM-V11 in that regard. I have L-N #8, #2, and #10-1/4 planes, and they worked OK grinding at 25 and honing at 30 back before I moved to higher edge angles on my common-pitch planes.

    As noted in the other thread A2 prefers higher angles like any high-alloy, non-PM steel though IMO anything over 30 deg is acceptable for most uses.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Derek,

    That is the crux of O1 vs. A2 or even PMv11, what wood do you use and how do you sharpen. I mostly work with USA domestic hardwoods and I much prefer natural stones for sharpening. Why natural stones? I can come up with a dozen reasons but the bottom line is probably two things they are how I learned to sharpen so they "feel right" and there is some "romance" to natural stones. Dumb I know but it is what it is. BTW I've started down the JNat slippery slope and I'm not sure where it will end. Say your Omni, Omni, VOR's for me I may need 'em.

    ken
    It's like a "romance" with an abusive partner that takes all your money and won't let you hang around with any of your old high-alloy friends, but it feels so good when you "sharpen your blade" so it must be right...

    So I have a curiosity question: What do Japanese woodworkers use to sharpen their Blue Steel tools? Based on composition that stuff has to have nontrivial Tungsten carbide content, and the Silicate abrasives in JNats aren't going to work so well on those.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 06-13-2016 at 10:57 AM.

  5. #20
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    I sharpen blue steel 1 & 2 along with exotic alloys like Togo Kou (modern Togo Regiou) with natural stones. I'm getting clear edges. I also sharpen extremely hard white steel 1 and Assab K120 with the same stones.

    A2 always appears to have an eroded look when worked with natural stones, that same issue in not the case with the steels mentioned above.

    Often it is right on the edge of being able to cut those steels.
    Bumbling forward into the unknown.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by george wilson View Post
    Ken, I wonder how many here are old enough to recall that the "Silly Millimeter" was the advertising slogan of a cigarette manufacturer back in the 50's. They advertised that they made their cigarettes a "Silly millimeter" longer than others did. I certainly heard that slogan many, many times!
    George,

    I expect not many. A sure sigh it may be time to shuffle off stage, visit the Tijuana Farm and Ranch store, do a Thelma & Louise, is when you have to explain all your cultural references. I've been doing it for a few years now, sometimes my clients look at me with the "what is this old fool talking about now" look. Sometimes I tell 'em to suck it up, may you live so long.

    ken

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I sharpen blue steel 1 & 2 along with exotic alloys like Togo Kou (modern Togo Regiou) with natural stones. I'm getting clear edges. I also sharpen extremely hard white steel 1 and Assab K120 with the same stones.

    A2 always appears to have an eroded look when worked with natural stones, that same issue in not the case with the steels mentioned above.

    Often it is right on the edge of being able to cut those steels.
    To be clear the problem here isn't average hardness, it's homogeneity or lack thereof. I'm not surprised that super-hard White 1 works because that stuff has almost no carbides and is therefore uniformly hard.

    The problem with A2 is that it has ~5% Cr, and the resulting Chromium carbides have hardness well in excess of Rc70 even when the average hardness of the alloy is tempered to typical A2 values of Rc61 or so. Those carbides are large enough that you get noticeable edge dulling if the sharpening medium chips/erodes them out instead of honing them.

    After thinking about it some more I think I understand why Blue Steel works: Tungsten tends to form finer grain structures than Chromium, and Blue only has ~2% W to begin with. The resulting carbides are Rc75+, but they're probably small enough that chipping/eroding them out during honing doesn't result in a detectably dull edge. It would be interesting to see what's going on with an SEM though.

    "Small carbides" are also why PM-V11 hones acceptably on natural stones. It appears to have wicked high Cr content (more than D2) but PM processing shrinks the individual carbides to the point where it isn't a practical issue.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 06-13-2016 at 12:44 PM.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick Chase View Post
    It's like a "romance" with an abusive partner that takes all your money and won't let you hang around with any of your old high-alloy friends, but it feels so good when you "sharpen your blade" so it must be right...

    So I have a curiosity question: What do Japanese woodworkers use to sharpen their Blue Steel tools? Based on composition that stuff has to have nontrivial Tungsten carbide content, and the Silicate abrasives in JNats aren't going to work so well on those.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Holcombe View Post
    I sharpen blue steel 1 & 2 along with exotic alloys like Togo Kou (modern Togo Regiou) with natural stones. I'm getting clear edges. I also sharpen extremely hard white steel 1 and Assab K120 with the same stones.

    A2 always appears to have an eroded look when worked with natural stones, that same issue in not the case with the steels mentioned above.

    Often it is right on the edge of being able to cut those steels.
    Thanks Brian.

    Patrick,

    Your analogy is better than mine.

    I do not have any Blue Paper Japanese tools so I defer to Brian on that one.

    ken

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Prashun Patel View Post
    "Romance to Natural Stones"

    Isn't this a bad 80's movie?

    Prashun,

    It was good enough for even worse sequel.

    ken

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken hatch View Post
    Derek,

    That is the crux of O1 vs. A2 or even PMv11, what wood do you use and how do you sharpen. I mostly work with USA domestic hardwoods and I much prefer natural stones for sharpening. Why natural stones? I can come up with a dozen reasons but the bottom line is probably two things they are how I learned to sharpen so they "feel right" and there is some "romance" to natural stones. Dumb I know but it is what it is. BTW I've started down the JNat slippery slope and I'm not sure where it will end. Say your Omni, Omni, VOR's for me I may need 'em.

    ken
    Hi Ken

    I read sharpening threads with a mix of curiosity and bewilderment. Perhaps I am being over-simplistic here, but the aim of sharpening is to create two intersecting, polished edges. The only issue is that some media are better or less suited to certain steels. Everything gets abraded with diamond, but diamond does not polish well. Choose the poison you prefer. Just ensure that it abrades the steel you use, and that you can polish to the level of smoothness you prefer.

    This way, A2 will certainly get as sharp as anything else. That is not to say that the edge is the equal of O1 or PM-V11. In theory, the larger carbides in A2 can leave a serration. In practice, I obtain excellent surfaces in hard woods. The woods in Australia are hard, interlocked and abrasive (high in silica). Edge holding is a high priority for me since a dull blade will more readily lead to tearout. For this reason, O1 is risky to use. I have replaced many of my blades with PM-V11. This has greater durability than A2 and a similar (better?) smooth edge than O1.

    Your softer and straighter-grained woods are not demanding at all. You can use O1 happily all day long. The only issue for you is that softer woods will show up any shortcomings in sharpness. Fortunately, O1 can be sharpened by just about anything.

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

  11. #26
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    Ken, if you have not yet moved on the new plane Iron I'd second Tony's tip on the Ray Iles. I only have one of their irons, it lives in a Stanley 78 Knockoff where the original iron supplied was super soft. Honed up very nicely on an oil stone and works very well.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Cohen View Post
    Hi Ken

    I read sharpening threads with a mix of curiosity and bewilderment. Perhaps I am being over-simplistic here, but the aim of sharpening is to create two intersecting, polished edges. The only issue is that some media are better or less suited to certain steels. Everything gets abraded with diamond, but diamond does not polish well. Choose the poison you prefer. Just ensure that it abrades the steel you use, and that you can polish to the level of smoothness you prefer.
    I think the reason for the disconnect is because there's a second issue that you're consistently ignoring even though it's been repeatedly explained:

    Every steel has a critical angle below which it can't be honed without unacceptable wear during use, due to edge-chipping. D2 is infamous for requiring high honing angles to avoid chipping, and A2 is problematic as well. Note that the sharpening medium does not matter as much in this context - even if you hone the edge perfectly, the carbides in the edge will still be vulnerable to chipping due to their weak attachment to the surrounding metal. This is why the straight-razor crowd don't use A2 or any other high-alloy steels.

    I can buy that in your specific case you may not see this as a significant issue. If you're bashing away on "impossible woods" all day then low-alloy steels will probably be so vulnerable to conventional dulling and edge-folding when honed to low angles (<30 deg) that the chipping issue with A2 might not look like much of a problem. That doesn't in any way invalidate what other people are saying about what happens in *their* use cases as you seem to suggest above, though.
    Last edited by Patrick Chase; 06-13-2016 at 11:56 AM.

  13. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Zaffuto View Post
    I woild also consider either Clifton or Ray Isle's irons.

    I do have and like the LV PM V11.
    Tony,

    I've a Clifton on back order, who knows when it will show. I've a Ray Isle's in shop but it needs a modified cap iron as do the LV and Hock irons. Now that I may have worked out an easy fix that does not mod the plane or frog I will try the Ray Isles.

    ken

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham Haydon View Post
    Ken, if you have not yet moved on the new plane Iron I'd second Tony's tip on the Ray Iles. I only have one of their irons, it lives in a Stanley 78 Knockoff where the original iron supplied was super soft. Honed up very nicely on an oil stone and works very well.
    Thanks Graham,

    I've one to try.

    ken

  15. #30
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    Cool, would be good to hear your thoughts, you don't find much user feedback on them.

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