Yes, You Need a Jointer and a Jack

[Jim Koepke]

If there is such a thing as 1" mortise chisel, I've never seen it. I've never seen a 1" firmer chisel either.

Here are a couple of chisels I use for 1" mortise work:

Square Check.jpg

One is likely a timber framing chisel and the other is a square edge chisel. Not sure if there is any modern makers of a 1" mortise chisel.

I have also made mortises with bevel edge and square edge chisels. I find using a mortise chisel is less work overall.

jtk

[Simon MacGowen]

Steven, I was not insulting Paul Sellers (who I think is good in his way). I was teasing his followers - typically newbies who hang on his every word (read his blog for examples). This is a case where he and Chris Schwarz (who also has fan boys on his forum) offer opposite advice. So who is right? You can't follow both.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Fan boys, which may not be an acceptable term to some or an accurate term, sure exist not just for Sellers. You can find them for Schwarz, Cosman, Klausz, Underhill, etc. If you care to read some of the comments by the regulars in Schwarz's blog, you would shake your head that almost everything Schwarz puts out there would get unquestioned endorsements and agreements. If Schwarz mentions a new tool or gadget, you sure will see someone saying they can't wait to get it. Of course, the same can be said of Sellers' posts.

Schwarz and Sellers are no God, guys. You don't have to agree with them on everything to show your support. And then some even refer to Underhill affectionately as Saint! I am not saying these great woodworkers and teachers don't deserve our respects and support, but idolizing is another thing.

This is woodworking and not show business. Perhaps, some players in the industry (publishing, tool makers, etc.) do want to promote and present these people as celebrities -- which is good for business -- and any idolizing is more than welcome.

Simon

[lowell holmes]

I have also made mortises with bevel edge and square edge chisels. I find using a mortise chisel is less work overall.

jtk

I have a 1 1/2" square sided chisel that I think is a framing chisel. It has "BUCK" on it. I also have a thick 2" chisel with beveled edges. It is definitely a framing chisel.
It belonged to a chair builder out of Hoboken. He was there during the early 20th century. I've made new handles for them. The 2" chisel had no handle. I had to grind the beat up edges on the socket.

I have chopped mortises with both chisels while making gate posts with headers in the 4X4 posts. I've also made arbors for SWMBO's garden. Both chisels are razor sharp.
It's a pleasure to work with them.

Aren't we supposed to be talking a planes in the string?

[steven c newman]

You mean these things?
FULL till.jpg
And, depending on what I am doing, all might get used....

[Glen Canaday]

Every one of them (and probably a few here) has fanboys. Even Richard Maguire has them.

I think the "St. Roy" euphemism arises because of what he's done over the years to help prevent the death of hand tool craftsmanship. By that extention we should also have "St. Paul," "St. Rick," and "St. Schwarz," but the most of them need a few more years in the public eye before they earn the honorific.

It was Paul Sellers who showed me that I could really do it, Schwarz who gave another view and thus counterpoint, and Richard whom I identify the most with and would probably sit for far too long with in the pub.

I personally believe we all need to take "St. Schwarz's" advice to disobey. Else, how will we ever get our next role models?

[Josh Nelson]

I like Sellers. In fact, I respect the skills and insight the man brings to the table. I also appreciate him in much the same way that I appreciate Undershill and Schwarz namely in that they are all doing their parts to bring our past to the present with as much zeal and enthusiasm as they can muster. That said, I've always thought Sellers was bonkers in his insistence of using the lower end of the Stanley number scale for almost everything (and those hard to find 1/2 size blades!). Heck, I'm weird though, I tend to use my No. 6 and No. 7 for most of my work. Sure the Jack and the Smoother get used but often I can (with the right size material of course) get from a No. 7 to a cabinet scraper.

Point being, we all have our "method."

[Nick Stokes]

I'm fairly certain that PS is so adamant in saying "a #4 can do it all" simply because he wants people to jump in and create stuff. He doesn't want there to be barriers and excused why you can't get a job done. That is all.

I'm clearly a PS Fanboy, and I've wanted hours and hours of his private site, and built many of the projects. There have been times where he was jointing an edge, or tapering a table leg, and he reaches over for his #5 or larger plane... He takes a few strokes then says "oops, I don't want to mislead you, you can do this with a #4 if you need to", and he puts it back down and grabs the smoother.

It's simply for instruction... he doesn't actually believe that smoother joints better than a jointer...

I respect all of these folks, no doubt. PS, Richard, Rob, I love them all and soak up as much youtube or private content as I can find. Can't get enough, and love the different viewpoints.

[John Kananis]

I think Nick Stokes nailed it. Sellers main concern is (IMHO) to get new people woodworking. Many new folks taking up the craft find the initial investment (dictated by others) a bit financially daunting. Paul Sellers focuses on the absolute necessary items you need to get started. He's mentioned in many of his videos that he has and uses the larger numbered planes but if you need to, you can get by with the most inexpensive model #4 Stanley available (he also recommends other brands for further savings).

The man is obviously very talented and the fact that he can use a number 4 to do almost all his planing should be admired as I'm sure in his own shop away from a camera, he would use the appropriate plane for the task (as any master craftsman would do).

We all know that if you get into woodworking, chopping mortises with bevel edge chisels, you're going to eventually get a bug up your butt to get a mortising chisel - I'm sure Paul knows this also but again, I believe he's simply doing his best to introduce new folks to the art with minimal investment.

[Stewie Simpson]

Its also important to bear in mind that the terms of reference still used today can be traced back to the early days of wooden planes. Wooden planes have at least 1/2 the weight of a steel bodied plane in relation to length of sole; weights a very important factor when focusing on reducing body fatigue. If you take into account the early stages of flattening the face of a board, your primarily focused on eliminated the high areas that come result from cupping and wind in order to work the entire board surface down to a common height; this is commonly done by traversing the planes direction of travel at 45* to the long grain; a no. 4 size steel plane is ideally suited to this task for 2 main reasons; its lighter weight; and its sole length allows better access to those areas between 2 high points that a longer soled plane would commonly miss. After the traversing work has been completed, and the surface of the board is within close proximity of common height, the planes directional stroke changes to one that's more parallel aligned to the direction of long grain; that is where the longer soled planes serve their role extremely well.

[Patrick Chase]

Here are a couple of chisels I use for 1" mortise work:

One is likely a timber framing chisel and the other is a square edge chisel. Not sure if there is any modern makers of a 1" mortise chisel.

I have also made mortises with bevel edge and square edge chisels. I find using a mortise chisel is less work overall.

jtk

The usual way of doing a 1" mortise with pigstickers is to cut a pair of parallel mortises, each less than 1/2" wide, and then chop out the center as a final step.

[Patrick Chase]

Its also important to bear in mind that the terms of reference still used today can be traced back to the early days of wooden planes. Wooden planes have at least 1/2 the weight of a steel bodied plane in relation to length of sole; weights a very important factor when focusing on reducing body fatigue..

This is maybe true for taking a fine shaving with low cutting forces as in smoothing. For roughing the cutting forces are so high that they absolutely swamp any contribution from the plane. It simply does not matter at that point.

[Derek Cohen]

I'm fairly certain that PS is so adamant in saying "a #4 can do it all" simply because he wants people to jump in and create stuff. He doesn't want there to be barriers and excused why you can't get a job done.

This is my view as well, and one of the qualities I appreciate in Paul. However, his followers are all in the main newbies, and they take his suggestions quite literally. The fact is that Paul is extremely skilled, and he can make do with anything. There are other planes, such as the jointer, which do not get mentioned, and therefore do not enter the world of those learning from him. The same must be said for his views on mortice chisels. You can chop with anything, but a proper mortice chisel does a better job, and more easily. All these techniques are very valid and valuable, but they are not all that is needed. My reference to "fanboys" was aimed at those who follow blindly and constantly refer in discussions to Paul for correct technique (the emphasis here is follow blindly. Plus the post was originally meant in jest - not a wise idea, since it gets taken out-of-context by some). It was not a comment about Paul.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

However, his followers are all in the main newbies, and they take his suggestions quite literally.

Some will even get argumentative if someone suggests a longer plane. After all they learned from a professional teaching woodworker.

jtk

[Stanley Covington]

I read Mr. Schwarz's post with interest. And depending on what kind of work you do, I can only agree with him.

There are centuries of documented history, and hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of craftsmen already gone to the big woodpile in the sky that worked using this combination of tools, and bought jack, jointer, and smoother, during times when tools were much more expensive than they are today.

Even if you own an electric jointer and planer, or thickness sander, the minute you work anything too wide, too long, or too thick for your equipment, then you will need to rely on planes. If the woodworking you do doesn't require three planes, lucky you.

The comment was made above, and quite correctly I think, that Mr. Sellers is focused on encouraging and training newbies. From this perspective, focusing on a single plane, the smoother, makes perfect sense. But if you watch his videos, he has hundreds of pounds worth of metal planes displayed in the cabinets behind his workbench. Are we to accept that they are only props? I suspect they all work, and that he uses some of those jacks and jointers when the task at hand calls for them.

I don't see any conflict between what Mr. Schwarz and Mr. Sellers are advocating.

The Elephant has a tail and a trunk, and neither is a drainpipe.

[Luke Dupont]

I'm fairly certain that PS is so adamant in saying "a #4 can do it all" simply because he wants people to jump in and create stuff. He doesn't want there to be barriers and excused why you can't get a job done.

This is my view as well, and one of the qualities I appreciate in Paul. However, his followers are all in the main newbies, and they take his suggestions quite literally. The fact is that Paul is extremely skilled, and he can make do with anything. There are other planes, such as the jointer, which do not get mentioned, and therefore do not enter the world of those learning from him. The same must be said for his views on mortice chisels. You can chop with anything, but a proper mortice chisel does a better job, and more easily. All these techniques are very valid and valuable, but they are not all that is needed. My reference to "fanboys" was derogatory to those who follow blindly, and constantly refer in discussions to Paul for correct technique. It is not a comment about Paul.

Regards from Perth

Derek

As one who probably comes off as a Paul Sellers fanboy (woops!) and tried using a #3 for jointing (hey, I did finally get good results!), and is indeed a newbie, I'm probably not one to talk, but:

I think there's a difference in philosophy, to some extent. I've always been one to enjoy learning how to do the most possible with the least available; to develop a flexible, fundamental skillset, rather than a specialized one. And to own just a few general purpose, flexible tools that, while they may not be the perfect tool for any particular job, will do a wide range of jobs quite well given that you have the skill to make them work. I've done this not just with woodworking, but with many of my other hobbies as well, such as programming; I find that most people are quick to adopt libraries and such, right from the get go, that work magic behind the scenes and take care of a lot of stuff for them. Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I took the opposite approach; I built everything from the ground up as a beginner, because I wanted that experience and skillset. I can always adopt a more specialized tools at a later date as it is warranted, but as learning goes, I think it's a good experience to do things the simple, if less efficient way.

I learned quite a bit from jointing with a #3, I'm happy to say

There is some practical lines to my thinking as well, though, and I assume this to be the case for many people; not everyone has the luxury of all the best. I mean, it would be great to have a tool cabinet filled to the brim with every specialized tool I might ever need, to have an entire garage at my disposal to work in, and to have a huge, 600lbs Roubo bench to work on. But that would be impossible for my lifestyle. I mean, I'm in the process of moving as we speak, from one apartment to another. Space is extremely limited. I need a few, flexible tools and a lightweight bench that I can fold up and take with me. I'm not aiming to be a professional cabinet maker, or woodworker, but just a hobbyist adding one more interest and capability to an already rather large pool of hobbies and interests. Doing more with less, and adopting a very simple, minimalist approach makes sense for me, at this stage in my life and development of this hobby. That's why I'm so fond of Paul's approach. That said, I make an effort to stay open minded and grab from wherever I can, and see what works for me. I routinely try approaches that I don't think I'll be fond of, if it fits within my budget and space constraints and seems useful.

I think I see more on the reverse end of the spectrum, though, of people who always use the most specialized, perfect tools for the job, and are adamant that those tools and methods are the "best" way and that everyone should use them. That line of thinking doesn't really ring home to me, or fit my needs, and I think it discourages a lot of people from getting into a great hobby.

I do take que's from other sources as well. And, whilst I do plan on getting a jack plane, because I perceive the added convenience to warrant owning the tool, I am still of the impression that those who say you can do it all with a small plane aren't mistaken. Just take a look at Japanese woodworkers; whilst they do have nagadai kanna, most seem to use short planes for most, or all of their work, even long dai planes are comparable to a jack at best. Now, I realize I might be wrong, as I'm not all that knowledgeable of Japanese woodworking methods yet, so maybe Stanley can correct me, but that is my impression, and I'll wager that most Japanese craftsmen simply learn to use short planes where we might feel a longer plane is necessary.

So, whilst I'm still a newbie and it may be rather arrogant for me to say such, I'll disagree with the statement that "Yes, you need a jack and a jointer." You should be the judge of that; your work, your needs, your experience, and your constraints. You shouldn't buy (or refuse to buy) anything just because someone else told you that you do (or don't) need it. Well, you know, unless that person really knows what they're talking about and your experience leads you to think that they might be right. But definitely try and fail the hard way first! You learn more that way

PS. I'm not intending to defend myself here, nor am I taking any offense. I'm just intending to communicate where myself, and probably a lot of other perceived "fanboys" are coming from. People find a certain teacher with methods that gel for them, and fit them personally. There's also the issue of, as a newbie, simply having very limited exposure to certain ways of doing things, hence the "Oh, I saw X do it this way!" or "Here's how X did and it works for me." kind of comments. I think there's nothing wrong with those things as long as you remain open-minded and don't start thinking that your way is the only way. When it comes down to it, though, I think statements along the lines of "you don't need X, you can make do without it" to generally be more open minded than statements along the lines of "you absolutely need X and you're wrong if you don't use it"