The question of the saw nib.

[george wilson]

I thought Nibs were little cheese crackers!

[Tony Zaffuto]

I thought that was the nickname given to Major Hoople by the boarders in the old comic "Out our Ways" (actually called "His Nibs").

[george wilson]

Actually,the crackers are NIPS!!

[Stew Denton]

Hi All,

Well, this post is of substantial interest, at least to me. I very much want to keep to the exact topic and not vary even a smidgen from the topic or go "off topic" even by a single word, a practice clearly shown by the fine "on topic" discipline shown all of the above posters........as Major Hoople used to say "Um, yas boys."

Edit addition: A bit ago, after writing the above earlier today, I thought I should add that if I could have thought of something clever that was off topic, I would have added it.

I too have seen scans of old Disston catalogs on the net that clearly state that the Nib was for decoration only. Henry Disston started learning the saw making trade as an apprentice in 1833, according to Wikipedia. Having worked in industry for many years, I know a little bit about how questions get asked and information gets passed on. I am quite sure he probably asked about the Nib and it's purpose as an apprentice, and that information would almost certainly have been passed along to others who worked at Disston, and who knows how far back it would have been traced from the master craftsman that trained Henry Disston. Also, Henry encouraged immigration of skilled craftsmen from England to staff his saw works, so their history would also have gone back a long way. What I am saying here is that I think the statement in the catalog, which if I remember was a catalog from right around the beginning of the last century, that the nib was for decoration only, likely goes back a very long time, probably, as George showed, well back into the early 1700s, 1600s, or possibly even a little earlier.

I think the essence of what George and others pointed out, if my understanding of the comments is correct, is that if you were going to add a nib for a practical purposes, it would not have been shaped as they were, nor made a fragile as they were. I am in complete agreement with such thoughts. I am sure that a nib could be used to start a saw cut, or to mark for a saw mark, and as a place to tie on a scabbard or something similar to protect teeth and other tools, etc. However, if that was the original intent, it would not have looked like the historic nib.

I have even read the nib was used as a mark for a purchaser to use as a truth mark to bend the saw to a certain point to "test the temper," or something similar. I think such, especially the "test the temper" theory, makes little sense, as again for such purposes you would make the saw nib a different shape, and it would certainly be a more robust design. Also, if I were a saw maker or shop keeper, and some idiot wanted to "test the temper" of a saw by bending it nearly double, I would advise him he could test it in that manor all he wanted after he paid for it, and there would be no refund after he completed his testing.

With regard to the "New In the Box" theory, there are a lot of rust hunters on this site, including me....although I don't get to go rust hunting very often, and it is hard for me to believe that a seasoned rust hunter could not tell the difference between a new saw and one that has seen much use.

Stew

[Kees Heiden]

A discussion of the sawnib should start in The Netherlands in the early 17th century when the first saws with a wide saw blade and a decoration on the nose appeared. You find a collection on this website: http://www.openluchtmuseum.nl/media/...1391070219.jpg

Example: detail_1409_0_1391070219.jpg

Before that time they used framesaws and a saw that looked like a large knife with sawteeth, like you can find on Durer's drawing "Melancholia".

I really think the nib is a decoration that was partly inspired by the decoration on those Dutch saws. It might not look like much to some, but it is the typical decoration of a blacksmith made with just a few strokes with a file.

All the other theories are not very plausible.

- A kerf starter. How clumsy do you want to work with a saw?
- A gauge to watch when the saw nears the end of the cut. Well, I don't know about you, but I watch the saw line when sawing vigourously, not the other side of the plate where the nib is. And of course, an experienced worker knows the length of his saws intuitively. And on the Dutch saws the decoration is too close to the end anyway.
- A ty point for a ribbon to keep a teeth protector in place. I thought this was the most plausible explanation, but you don't really need the nib for this. The lowered part cut into the top of the sawplate is enough to keep the ribbon in place. The nib is something extra.

[george wilson]

Aw shucks! I knew them Dutchies would try to claim credit!!

I don't have access to the pictures,but they dug up at Jamestown 1607 a saw with a larger nib,and a large ogee curve to terminate the front end of the blade. I believe it was an English saw. I can't be sure. Too long ago.

We were asked to make some 17th. C. English saws,and a few Dutch types,though,for Jamestown museum. The "Umbrella Handle" (as Jon and I called them) Dutch saws we made were surprisingly comfortable to saw with.

The purpose of the saw nib is lost to the long history behind it. But,the fact still remains that other tools in a box or a basket still needed protection from their scratching teeth. Craftsmen did tie sticks over their teeth,or risk damage to other tools,or the basket. More advanced tool chests did not need this protection,but not everyone had them,and many did carry tools about in a light weight basket for local work.

[Kees Heiden]

Jamestown 1607, even it was a true English saw it could still have been made by a Dutch, or better, Flemish imigrant! At that time England was still under strong continental influence. BTW, The Netherlands received a lot of knowledge from refugees from Portugal, Spain and France where anything not Catholic was strongly suppressed. Being relatively tolerant was smart business practice!

[george wilson]

They did dig up a Dutch saw as well,hence we were asked to make some Dutch saws too. But,my history is not clear: Weren't England and the Netherlands engaged in a very long war at that time? The Dutch even sailed up the Thames,wreaking destruction,didn't they?

I know that Earlier on,Henry the Eighth,rankled by the gift of a very elaborate suit of armor from Maxmillian of Austria(which can be seen in the tower of London),had imported Flemish armor makers to start English armor making(at the very bend of wearing armor!) in Greenwich. English gunmaking was in a primitive state until Hugenots (some of my ancestors) immigrated to England,bringing their gun making skills with them. Nothing much uglier than an old English "dog lock"!

[Kees Heiden]

The wars with the English were a bit later. The first (of four) was 1652 to 1654. Sailing up the Thames was in 1665. Those wars were mostly fought out at sea.

About 1607 we were still struggling with the Spanish king who of course didn't aprove of the freedom of those lowlands and the introduction of protestantism.

[Stew Denton]

George (and all),

I have made at least one sheath for a saw, that I remember, maybe more. The best one was just three pieces of 1/8" paneling glued together to fit over the lower part of the blade, and tied onto the blade. It wasn't too long after getting more carpenters tools, however, that I made my first regular carpenters tool box, you know the type, sides going about 1/2 way up the end pieces, and a wooden rod for the handle. I built a saw till in it so the saws could not wander around and do damage.

What I was wondering is do any of you know a bit of the history of that type of tool box. The comment George made on baskets for carrying tools made me think about that. I know this is a bit off topic, but considering the trend of this topic, decided it wouldn't hurt too much! (Don't want to hijack the thread, but we have been doing pretty well about getting back on topic each time we go off.)

Stew

[george wilson]

I haven't studied the history of tool boxes that much. But,those big heavy tool boxes were more for traveling,and yes,they do have provisions for protecting the saw's teeth. But,consider the carpenter who is doing more local work with fewer tools needed,and carrying his tools in a basket. Baskets were hand made and cost money. A hand made basket made in Williamsburg is not cheap like those Asian imports are going to be. He needed to keep the basket from getting shredded.

As I have said,I have seen jointers with saw teeth DEEPLY beaten into their sides from not being properly protected. Everyone did not have an elaborate tool chest,or the time and means to build one. Remember,early on,wood was hand sawn. You had to pay for that sawing. Everything cost more. Your average poor craftsman was already working long hours 6 days a week.

[Stew Denton]

George,

Your thoughts on this are much appreciated, and gave me pause for thought. I had not thought about the amount of labor involved back then to turn logs into lumber. That puts an entirely different perspective on the matter.

As a poor college student just working summer jobs, I could even afford to buy lumber to build a tool box, and tools (although most were garage sale and auction versions that cost a fraction of their original cost, but needed some TLC to bring them back to good condition.) After thinking about your comments it made me realize that they probably used baskets because they were probably more affordable than tool boxes because of the cost of materials.

It may have very well been that many carpenters of that day may have only had a few more tools than I had late in my college days. On the other hand I also think that back in the day before power tools, it didn't take a huge number of tools to build a house or other building. It also explains why shops were small....besides only using hand tools and not a lot of room was needed, the cost of the building was large in terms of the labor it took to prepare materials, etc.

Am I on target on this?

Stew