Having difficulty in choosing a spindle moulder.

[Albert Lee]

I am having real difficulty in deciding which spindle moulder to get

SCM TF130 with side mounted tenon table?

or the Format 4 Profil 45 Z Xmotion?


I am new to the spindle moulder, I have been using the spindle moulder on the combination machine, its an ass to setup, because it takes a long time to setup the spindle moulder on the combination machine so I just don’t use much of the shaper function, but I really want to spend more time on a shaper, it is a very versatile machine. I cut tenon mostly on my spindle moulder.


I have been looking at the F700Z and F900Z, and then I found out I can go to Format 4 Profil 45 Z X motion for 20k USD, Fully spec’ed.


But the Format has the sliding at the front of the spindle moulder, I like it on the side of the spindle moulder, I found one - SCM TF130. from the sawmill creek search on this unit and the sliding of a spindle moulder it seems the side mounted tenon table of the SCM is easier to use than the front tenon table like the Felder?? it seems you don’t need two shaper if you have a TF130 with side mounted tenon table, ok, there is setup time involved in converting from tenonning to profiling but I don’t need two shaper, I don’t have the space.


Can you please share your experience with the shaper if you own a Format/Felder or SCM T130 series? I dont think I will ever need the tilting.


The price I will be paying for the manual SCM TF130 is the same as the fully spec'ed and electronically controlled Format 4 Profil 45 Z Xmotion.


The SCM here is more expensive than the Felder over here. I don’t know why.

[Wayne Lomman]

Albert, I first used the SCM T130 equivalent about 30 years ago and loved it. That one had the tenoning table. The T130 I use now does not have the tenoning table but that has not bothered me yet. I am not generally one to go for electronic equipment, but I do like the look of the Format 4 unit. You may not think you have a use for a tilting spindle, but I think you may find uses for it if it is available. Check that it has equivalent horsepower. For me that is one of the most critical factors for a spindle moulder. Cheers across the ditch.

[Erik Loza]

SCM puts the tenoning table on the side specifically for the reason to save switchover time, if the user does that a lot.

Also, I'm surprised that one mfr's electronic shaper is, as you say, much cheaper than SCM's manual shaper. Assuming we're talking apples-to-apples. Not familiar with the other one you're looking at but I will say this: Generally, things cost what they cost for a reason. SCM is the biggest (and not "sort of", but SUBSTANTIALLY so) and is capable of manufacturing machines like this more economically than anyone else (except the Chinese, of course). So, if someone were telling me that shaper A was the same as shaper B, yet there was a huge price difference, I might start to wonder why? I can tell you that from the shop side of things, electronics are fine but if you have to X-many dollars and had to choose between electronics and build quality and assuming you want to still be using the machine in 10 or 15 years, 99% of the shops I deal with will go for build quality.

This is not to knock SCM's competitors but when you are spending this much money, I would A.), Put my hands on it and B.), get some independent opinions. From owners, not just from sales guys like me.

One thing I will say about SCM's TL-configuration shapers (with the side table) is that they are massive. Everything is cast iron. No aluminum, except the fences. The big SCM shapers are the closest things I have seen to Martins in terms of build quality. Here is a TF135 Class (it uses HSK spindles) from one of SCM's house shows. Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[David Kumm]

Maybe Joe Calhoon will chime in here as he is the shaper guy I rely on. I've got an older Felder 7 slider and the SCM T130 with the cast iron slider in the front. As nice as they are, a side mounted, over the top of the table and adjustable in and out tenoning table would be my first choice, particularly if only one machine. I routinely set up multiple shapers but a tenoning table can be used with stacked cutters so both the cope and stick can be one without a lot of changeover. Also look for the biggest capacity fence, longest spindles, and most massive quill assembly. The cast iron table must be flat and thick. Much of the quill is hung off the table on today's machines so the cast iron needs to be substantial. Look for Joe's posts here and PM him as he gives great info. Dave

[Larry Edgerton]

I'll second that, I listen to what Joe has to say.

I will add that I had a shaper with the slider on the front and would much prefer one on the end. Not at all knocking Felder because I have never owned any, but I have had great service from SCM products.

[Albert Lee]

Thank you all for your comment.

I went to the SCM today, they didnt have much machines on the floor, only 4.

I think I will go with the Ti145 fully spec'ed, tilting and electro spindle, tenon side table and 12 inch touch screen(not an option listed but I asked anyway). its going to be about $31-32k USD. final price, $31k USD after tax.. They gave a very good discount.

[Larry Edgerton]

Does that whole Brexit thing have any effect on your economy? Just curious with the deep discount. Seems like not so bad to me.

Nice machine, if you need help carrying it in let me know.

[Albert Lee]

I am not an economist but the only thing I know is their currency has dropped by 10% since the Brexit and we have a sudden surge of application to immigrate to NZ from UK.

I did approach an UK SCM dealer before the Brexit, after the polling they politely sent a follow up email, I asked for the best price - same price in NZ.

The list price of the machine I may put a deposit down is $37k USD - pending if they can do 12 inch touch screen instead of the 7 inch

not only I need help carrying it in, I also need reliable workers! lol

[Joe Calhoon]

Good choice on the side mount table, that is the way to go. I have had 2 shapers with the in table slider and don't like them. since the table is far away from the shaft it makes for a lot of inaccuracy. A tenon plate overcomes a lot of this but still hard to put clamp pressure on a tenon plate without a little flex. I like a smooth table in front of the shaft. The bolt on slider is better than a in table type and like the side mount can be positioned close to the shaft. They all take about the same amount of time to change over. One disadvantage to the side mount is you cannot use the fence for a backstop and require some sort of gauge to butt the workpiece against. And a tenon hood. My old Martin T23 I am in the process of restoring has a fence that swivels to use with the see mount table. It is a quick changeover this way. The advent of heavy motorized fences has taken away the possibility of the fence swiveling for most MFGs.

Lately we have been have been haunching and tenoning with the sliding table using one adjustable groover and utilizing the electronic shaft.

[Nick Hicks]

I think like Erik says, you get what you pay for. In my case, (Felder Format4 Profil 45 X motion), I got what I needed. It was around AUS$32k without a power feeder - I think the SCM was more than I was willing to pay but we never really got to the pricing stage. I also think the SCM is a more heavy duty unit but the Felder does what I wanted. I have both SCM and Felder gear - the only niggle with Felder is you tend to find you have to add on gear to the base whereas SCM products tend to come more fully fitted.

Both will have the ability to set height, tilt and fence repeatably which is key to using it productively without making seemingly endless test cuts for complex joins.

Cheers,
Nick

[Albert Lee]

Just an update

I have put a deposit down on a "medium" spec'ed Felder F700Z($9300 USD @0.7 exchange rate). This is my first real spindle moulder so I dont want to splash out too much, if I find myself use the shaper a lot then I will go to SCM Ti145 with all the electronics controls.

Another reason is that Felder NZ offered the K940S, AD951 and F700Z together at $38k USD (exchange rate 0.7), I really wanted to upgrade from the Robland so decided to get myself a F700z first.

The F700z will arrive in November. if I decided to go ahead with the K940s and AD951, they should arrive before Christmas but if it arrives in the new year I am not too fussed.