5 in 1 combo machines

[Brodie Brickey]

I have a small shop (built for a model A) so I'm looking to replace the cabinet saw, planer, and 8" jointer with a combination machine. I've been looking at the Hammer C3-31 Comfort model. I know some here have MiniMax combo machines. The shaper on some combos allow a router spindle which would also let me get rid of the router wing on the table saw. All in, it would be significant expense, but I wouldn't be in a rabbit warren trying to move through the machines. Sooner or later my current work flow is going to result in a problem.

I would be interested on feedback from users of combo machines:

• How do you like it?
• What changes did you have to address from single machine processes.
• Are there any other combos out there that I should be looking at besides Feldar/Hammer and MiniMax?

It is often asked, what type of woodworking? I do a lot of woodturning. On the woodworking side, it is chairs and cabinets. I am by no means a master, middle of the road journeyman.

[Mike Hollingsworth]

You are welcome to come to Pasadena and see my MM CU300. It is by far the best machine for my own situation.

[Ralph Okonieski]

I have a Minimax c26 combo. I really like it.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthre...ghlight=genius

the biggest change is planning the cuts is more critical unless you do not mind changing the machine from one to the next. Going from the saw to planer is the biggest due to removing the fence and moving the planer table. Only takes 30 secs max so not a big deal. The step upward in quality and capability from my original machines was huge. I would NOT go back to previous state.

going combo is personal decision. In my situation with a small shop, it made perfect sense.

[Jim Becker]

I actually look at the changeover that Ralph mentions as an opportunity...and opportunity to "not rush" and develop both the planning he indicated as well as a pace that minimizes errors from rushing. I don't have a "full" combo...I have a J/P combo paired with a sliding table saw as that was a better option for my particular shop physically...but like Ralph mentions, moving between functions on the J/P isn't arduous nor time consuming. With the slider, I pretty much "never" edge joint, so when I do use the jointer function, it's for flattening lumber and I do that in batches. Otherwise, the thicknessing function is primary and edges are done on the slider after the boards are flat and planed to dimension. The bottom line...you'll learn to work a little differently!

[Rich Riddle]

I like both the Felder/Hammer line and MiniMax but lean more toward Minimax in tool ownership. One thing to consider is parts availability. You want a tool where you can get parts ten years down the road. Customer service proves paramount.

[Albert Lee]

I have a Belgian made Robland NX410, not as fancy as Felder/Minimax but its half price of the Felder CF741 and its enough for what I do when I fist got it, I am looking at replacing it with separate machine due to increase work load.

One thing to note the setup on the Spindle moulder requires a lot of time and often a trial run. a stand alone spindle moulder is a must if you use it often.

[John Lankers]

Brodie, I used to own a Felder CF531 and the challenge for me was it had to be accessible from both sides, the machine took up prime space in the center of my shop. I have a new, bigger shop now and I am much happier with jointer/planer and saw/shaper.
I would suggest you figure out the footprint and the workarea of the machine you're planning to buy and build a mock up from OSB, plywood or whatever and pretend working on a project.
Edit: I'm not saying Combos are bad, it just didn't work for me.

[Brodie Brickey]

John: I appreciate the point. Currently I have a 50" cabinet saw at the very front of the garage. I have to open the garage door just to use. Then re-position my jointer to have the space for a 6 foot board on the outfeed side. Put the planar on the table saw, clamp down, and run the boards. For the combo, with the garage door open, I should be able to use the slider to run the boards in and plenty of room (12' or more) before I hit the lathe. Cross cuts may require some re-positioning of the combo depending on how long they will be. I'm in So Cal and am not building kayaks so 12+ foot boards are unlikely. If I did have to cut that, I would probably use the miter or circular saw to rough dimension. The C3-31 is smaller than the CF531. I probably won't be able to length rip a sheet of plywood using the slider unless I go up to the perform version.

Albert: I haven't worked with a shaper yet, only a router table. In posts on other boards many woodworkers recommend running off an extra length or two in case you make a mistake. Have you found that necessary? I'll take a look at Robland. How easy is it to get parts? How often do you need parts? How were the instructions for setup?

Rich: Have you had issues getting parts for your EU machines? How often have you needed parts? How clear are the instruction manuals? Admittedly I'm looking at the Hammer series which is the lower cost line of Felder, but I don't think I've run across a user having more than 1 or 2 issues with the Felder/Hammer line. The MM seems to have more issues, but that is likely because it is more popular (this isn't a dig on the product line just the number of perceived issues against the % of market share MM seems to have the larger market)

Jim: Thank you, hadn't realized I might be in a position to skip the edge jointing. Good to know. Slow is good, when I go fast problems occur.

Ralph: Thanks for that thorough review.

Mike: I will definitely take you up on that.

[Andy Giddings]

Brodie, would recommend also asking this question at the Minimax and Felder Owners Group on Yahoo Groups. You need to be a member but that's a painless process

[Jeff Monson]

Hey Brodie, There is a nice looking CF-731 on woodweb, cant beat Felder quality. Worth taking a look at IMO. Not sure on locations of you and the machine, but I have had great success buying machines and getting them shipped.

[Erik Loza]

Brodie, I'm obviously not un-biased about this but will add my 2-cents:

1.) Big advocate of 5-in-1 machines, use them myself. Used to travel the trade show circuit with a CU300, in fact. I have several hundred hobbiest ww'ers with a Minimax combo in their garage or home shop. If the customer can swing the initial investment, you do get a lot more machine for your dollar. At least with Minimax.

2.) I have seen folks say that they would prefer two semi-combos (such as a jointer/planer and saw/shaper, for example) over a full combo and everyone is cetainly entitled to their own opinion but the primary reason for that always seems to boil down to, "All I could afford was the jointer/planer". Which, of course, is totally fine: I have more FS30 jointer/planers in home shops than CU300's but would be willing to bet that if I were to offer any of those guys a CU300 for the same price as an FS30, they would all say, "Heck, yes!". If you get my drift.

3.) As others have mentioned, I don't find the switch-over time to be a hassle. Sure, you will be all thumbs at first bit once you get used to it, the workflow speeds up. Like learning drive a standard transmission. Not slower, just different. If you haven't seen them already, a gentleman named Peter Nyberg made an EXCELLENT series of videos on the Minimax CU300. His Youtube channel is "Sunnybeeches". Well worth the watch, regardless of which brand combo someone is looking at...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpi1iSiR8ZE

4.) Regarding availability of parts, that has not really been an issue for most of my guys. There is rarely anything that needs replacing and if it does, SCM Group has the largest spare parts warehouse and department of anyone. Also, there is this Minimax rep and Sawmill Creek member who they say really knows the ins and outs of Minimax combos...

Best of luck in your search.

Erik

[John Lankers]

You live in So Cal, could it be an option to make the machine mobile. Felder (and Hammer) machines can be ordered with a mobility kit or install your own h/d casters - what I like even better is using a pallet jack. You will need friendly neighbours if they're close and a flat floor. As for parts and accessories, I had one belt let go on the scoring unit in the 6 years I owned the CF531. You will get the best deal on accessories when you buy them with the machine - keep your eyes open for sales.
As an example for customer service - I ordered an additional table extension for the outfeed side of my planer at 2:30 pm, I picked it up at the courier depot at 3:00 pm the following day, no door to door delivery in the boonies :-(

[Ben Rivel]

I can say the few times I have had a question or needed to replace a small part or order an accessory Hammer has been as fast and great at CS as I would have expected. They have two locations that I know of in the US and Ive dealt only with the one closest to me and its been great. They've been around a long time too, so I wouldnt worry too much about parts replacement nor customer service. Regarding Hammer/Felder.

[Susumu Mori]

Hi Brodie,

I have A331 and B3, together the same as C3.
Of course, I wish that I have a 12-inch planer, a 12-inch jointer, a sliding table saw, and a shaper all as separate machines. In this way, they are always ready.
There are surely moments when I say, "oh, boy, I had one more stock to joint!" when the A331 is in the planer mode. I often find myself whipping out a hand planer because of that.

However, being in a shop without enough space (does anybody have enough space in a home shop anyway?), the space-saving factor is huge. Let's face it. During the course of making a furniture, the time each machine spends is not much. Even the most used machine occupies, maybe 20%? I'm not a big router/shaper user and they are like 5%? That means, these machines are just sitting there most of the time in my way of wood working. This is especially so if you are one of the "hybrid" type who would use hand tools frequently. B3/C3 has 0 space penalty for the shaper. A331 has a space requirement smaller than many US-type jointers yet it houses a very capable planer in its belly.

And there are whole different discussions about the quality of these euro machines (with respect now all in Chaiwan US makers) AND the benefit of the sliders.

Obviously, I'm in the euro combo camp and I'm biased but, yes, I like them and can't go back to old days with separate machines.

[clarke edgar]

I went from separates to a Minimax CU300. Life is more complicated, but the space savings is huge. And plan on spending $$$ for shaper bits. You will be disappointed in using router bits on your shaper. Also, reserve a lot of wall space to hang the accessories when not in use (ie. jointer fence, rip fence, outrigger table, J bar, mortiser, shaper fence, small miter gauge, long miter gauge, etc.. I am very happy I made the switch, I could barely walk around the shop, but if I had unlimited space I would go separates.